[Peace-discuss] RE: The Christmas He Dreamed for All of Us

[Chas. 'Mark' Bee]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Phil Stinard" <pstinard at hotmail.com>
To: <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 10:24 AM
Subject: [Peace-discuss] RE: The Christmas He Dreamed for All of Us


> >Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 10:46:16 -0600
>>From: "Paul M. King" <pmking at uiuc.edu>
>>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] The Christmas He Dreamed for All of Us To: 
>>Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>Message-ID: <ea7c4da3.70ca9c5f.81b3200 at expms3.cites.uiuc.edu>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>>These are some of my personal thoughts on Christianity. I hope
>>it helps some of our Good Christians understand how many
>>people of their faith are viewed. Please don't take it as an
>>attack.
>
> Thanks for your comments, Paul.  I already understand how many Christians 
> are viewed by others--I used to have the same point of view as you do.  I 
> don't take your comments as an attack, I take them as an opportunity for 
> enlightenment.
>
>>>Why the desire to erode Christmas of its spirituality
>>>for the secular popular sector?
>>
>>I don't believe most people want to erode Christmas of its
>>spirituality. The problem with the Christians I knew when I
>>was growing up, though, is that they do not recognize
>>spirituality outside of Christianity.
>
> I don't think the fact that Christians view Christianity as the only way to 
> salvation is a "problem."  It's a belief.  We have the right to our beliefs. 
> Calling it a "problem" means that you have a "solution," which if taken to 
> its logical end, would imply persecution.
>
>>>We have to decide whether or not we are willing to build
>>>coalition with believers that Christ is the one and only
>>>Messiah, Savior of the World. We have to decide whether
>>>we want our movement for social justice/ peace/ etc to
>>>be completely marxist-materialist or not.
>>
>>I don't know how we can or should build a coalition with
>>groups of people who believe "that Christ is the one and only
>>Messiah, Savior of the World." These people seem to be
>>fanatics to me. And rejecting such groups of fundamentalists
>>does not reduce the social justice movement to a materialist
>>position.
>
> I really appreciate your honesty here, Paul.  I've been talking with the 
> people in the AWARE church "presence" group, discussing whether they really 
> want dialogue or coalition-building with the churches they are protesting in 
> front of.  My impression from the long, drawn-out discussion on the UCIMC 
> web-site, is that they do not.  They seem to have a view of Christianity 
> more in tune with yours.  The sad thing is, I'm here, I'm a Christian, I'm 
> in favor of peace, I'm interested in dialogue, real dialogue, and no one has 
> taken me up on it.  However, you choose to brand me a fanatic, worthy of 
> rejection, and if your views are similar to those of other AWARE members, it 
> explains a lot.
>
> On the issue of materialism, would you agree that rejecting fundamentalists 
> reduces the social justice movement to a humanist position?  If God is 
> removed from the equation, doesn't that just leave humanistic reasons for 
> supporting social justice?
>
>>Why are people threatened by Christians? Because most
>>Christians believe that their God is the only True God.
>
> Yes, we believe that.  Why is that threatening?

  Because it leads to calls to overthrow the US government in favor of 
Biblical law.

  Because it leads to calls to stone homosexuals in the streets.

  Because it leads to calls to allow women to die in delivery wards.

  Because it leads to calls to withhold funding for academic institutions 
based on religious tests.

  Because it leads to eviscerating our crucial science curricula in favor of 
fairy stories.

  Because it leads to withholding antiimplantation drugs in emergencies like 
rape and forcible incest.

  Because it leads to real and fake Anthrax attacks and murder of health 
workers.

  Because it leads to sectarian violence all over the world.

  And, last but not least, because it's false.  Jews and Muslims worship the 
same God, despite current rampant religious propaganda to the contrary, most 
of it produced by 'christians' (note small C).

  I'm a born-again Christian, Phil.  I've had to abandon most of those folks 
now, because a very, very large chunk of Christ's Church has been straight-up 
co-opted by Satan, whereby it falls back on hideously draconian old testament 
law and runs forward into desires for totalitarian rule according to that law. 
If many of what used to be Jesus' flock had their way, we would be no better 
than the repressive religious government these people think they profess to 
fight in the Middle East.

  Until the Church gets a way to rein in its crazies and clean house instead 
of maintaining an 'every-congregation-for-itself' model, it remains vulnerable 
to every hate-spewing would-be monarch who can afford a million watts of radio 
waves or fire up a hateful internet site.  Every time it falls into that trap 
it becomes a portal for organized, unrepentant evil.  And that's threatening. 
Period.

  I'm not saying you're part of the problem, this is by way of explanation.