[Peace-discuss] Cartoons

Sat Feb 11 01:03:21 CST 2006

Matt said, "I am opposed to the publishing of this crap in much the same way 
I publicly
opposed the publishing of the zionist, anti-palestinian trash that appeared
in the DI a few years ago. (full page ad depecting palestinian children as
terrorists to be...)"

Just to play devil's advocate and discuss what we mean by "free speech" in 
the bounds of hate crimes and offense---- what if we called the cartoons 
art? Would you still be up for its "censorship"? I remember wanting to walk 
out of a lecture a couple years ago wherein religious iconography of mine 
was incredibly desecrated--the professor, however, vehemently insisted that 
this was ART. To play devil's advocate only, what if we call these cartoons 
were called art? Would you think them publishable? What if the cartoons were 
making fun of Jesus? Is the problem that it contributes to a climate that is 
already hateful? (If so, is the problem solved by suppressing its symptom?)

I do agree that publishing ads of palestinian children as "terrorists to be" 
adds fuel to the flames of racist visual material. I would not think that 
needs to be published. I agree that the first ammendment does not encompass 
the freedom to harm one another. But, where do we draw the line between hate 
crimes and free-market capitalist "speech" called art, advertised products 
made on the sweat of third world labor, or shares of stock in an 
exploitative and corrupt corporation? [I see these cartoons as symptoms of 
oppression in the same way I see high dividends paid to shareholders of 
corporations that that rely on sweatshops. Do we agree that the "hate crime" 
is done, or does it continue to inflict harm every time it is read?)] Whom 
do we ultimately benefit from suppressing the spread of this imagery? 
Immediately, yes, we protect the dignity of the people it lampoons. But is 
the result the same in the longrun? Is there any value to "muckraking" 
journalism?

Janine

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matt Reichel" <mattreichel at hotmail.com>
To: <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Cartoons

>
> When this was published in Charlie Hebdo a few days ago, I waited in a 
> longer than usual line at my local news stand here in the 14th 
> arrondissement to buy the published material, realizing full well that 
> this junk periodical was using hate speech as a means of making a little 
> extra cash, and that I was letting my curiosity help fuel that process. 
> Everyone in line seemed to mirror my sentiments: telling me that this has 
> nothing to do with "free speech," at least in part because we were paying 
> for it.
>
> I am opposed to the publishing of this crap in much the same way I 
> publicly opposed the publishing of the zionist, anti-palestinian trash 
> that appeared in the DI a few years ago. (full page ad depecting 
> palestinian children as terrorists to be...)
>
> Free speech has never meant freedom of speech at all times and places, but 
> instead requires an understanding of the balance between right and 
> responsibility: one can possess no right in a free and democratic society 
> without carrying it out in a thoughtful and responsible manner.
>
>
> Side Note: if the riots that englufed the northern balieue of Paris a few 
> months ago actually had anything to do with a "clash of civilizations" as 
> many commentators would have you believe, then publishing this cartoon 
> would most certainly have fueled the flames again...RIGHT??
>
> cheers,
> matt e r
>
>>From: "Janine Giordano" <jgiord2 at uiuc.edu>
>>Reply-To: Janine Giordano <jgiord2 at uiuc.edu>
>>To: <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>,"Bob Illyes" <illyes at uiuc.edu>
>>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Cartoons
>>Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 18:01:43 -0600
>>
>>Bob said, " I have no sympathy for the folks
>>that are rioting and burning, but am disgusted that the DI
>>has gotten into the fray by republishing stuff that is seen
>>as obscene by many Muslims. But then I believe they are behind
>>the Chief as well, so should I be surprised?"
>>
>>Yeah, that's an interesting question of whether or not offensive material
>>should be republished--for a particular purpose of pubic notice and open
>>critique. This is an interesting issue that I suspect the ACLU deals with
>>often---I, for one, really appreciate knowing what these cartoons that we
>>are all talking about actually look like. I don't personally like the idea
>>of opposing something on the grounds of hate-speech simply by taking the
>>"media's" word for it that these cartoons were so horrible. Seeing them, I
>>can have something to say. I have appreciated Ken Cuno and Behrooz
>>Ghamari-Tabrizi's explanation for why these are so offensive. Their
>>assessments lead me to wonder whether or not it matters how 
>>*intentionally*
>>hateful these cartoons were. Part of me believes (or wants to believe) 
>>that
>>these were made in real ignorance, and a climate of excessively 
>>racialized/
>>politicized religion. As Ghamari-Tabrizi's article implies, whether
>>consciously malicious or not they are part of an old system of
>>discrimination. But, in terms of responding to the incident here and now, 
>>I
>>wonder if we should consider constructive ways of theorizing/categorizing
>>hate speech from pathetic stupidity coming from a subculture of bigoted 
>>individuals. Is every racist/ close-minded remark a product of its 
>>culture, or is it possible that we have some bigots in Denmark? 
>>(Because,... we don't have to go all the way to Denmark....)
>>
>>janine
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Illyes" <illyes at uiuc.edu>
>>To: <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 3:46 PM
>>Subject: [Peace-discuss] Cartoons
>>
>>
>>>Thanks for the news, David. I have no sympathy for the folks
>>>that are rioting and burning, but am disgusted that the DI
>>>has gotten into the fray by republishing stuff that is seen
>>>as obscene by many Muslims. But then I believe they are behind
>>>the Chief as well, so should I be surprised?
>>>
>>>Bob
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Peace-discuss mailing list
>>Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! 
> http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Peace-discuss mailing list
> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss 