[Peace-discuss] Out now

[Chas. 'Mark' Bee]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at uiuc.edu>
To: "Chas. 'Mark' Bee" <c-bee1 at itg.uiuc.edu>
Cc: <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Out now


> What polls there are (e.g., leaked UK DOD last year) agree that well
> over 80% of Iraqis want the US out.  Virtually any history of France in
> WWII will show that the Germans and Vichy had more support than that
> (e.g., perhaps the Catholic historian and Academician Rene Remond, The
> Right Wing In France, recently in English but written a generation ago).
> That's why so many collaborators were persecuted after 1945 (and so many
> others -- including at least one later President of the Republic -- had
> to work hard to cover up their collaboration).

  What makes this a false comparison is that the Vichy government set up in 
occupied France was the main tool through which the support of French citizens 
was secured.  They supported the Vichy French government, not necessarily the 
Germans, and in fact the Vichy government never did fulfill German 
expectations.

  Therefore, you're comparing apples and oranges - or more appropriately, 
apples and apple cores.  If you're going to say "the Germans and Vichy", then 
on the other side of the equation you need to use the number of Iraqis who 
support the current occupation-friendly government we've likewise set up in 
Iraq, as well as the ones who support the American occupation itself.  Just by 
counting purple thumbs, I'm betting it's well over 20%.

  Or, you could drop the Vichy and jjust quote the number of French who didn't 
want the Germans out.  I'm betting that's well under 20%.


>
> And WWII France like Iraq was riven by ideological disputes become civil
> war, which -- again like Iraq -- were encouraged by the occupier.  In
> France the occupation was intertwined with an internal civil war, one
> faction opposing the Communist and Republican elements of society, while
> reactionary elements supported a fascist or Francoist regime -- a
> continuation of a fracture that divided French society from the 19th
> century or even the Revolution, roughly comparable to Sunni/Shia.
>
> The French case is more typical than the Iraqi (i.e, the level of
> opposition in Iraq is unusual): during the American Revolution, the
> anti-British resistance had the support of only a third of the populace,
> according to the revolutionaries themselves (viz. John Adams).
>
> Chas. 'Mark' Bee wrote:
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at uiuc.edu>
>> To: "Chas. 'Mark' Bee" <c-bee1 at itg.uiuc.edu>
>> Cc: <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>> Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 2:02 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Out now
>>
>>
>>> There are striking differences. For one thing, the Germans had more
>>> support in occupied France than the Americans have in occupied Iraq (in
>>> part because their occupation was less oppressive).
>>
>>  Interesting claim - got a cite?
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Chas. 'Mark' Bee wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "C. G. Estabrook"
>>>> <carl at newsfromneptune.com>
>>>> To: <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 1:44 AM
>>>> Subject: [Peace-discuss] Out now
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Published on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 by the Seattle Post-Intelligencer
>>>>> Civil War Won't End Until Troops Leave Iraq
>>>>> by Patrick Cockburn
>>>>> ...
>>>>> Can anything be done to lead Iraqi out of this savage civil war even if
>>>>> it is now too late to stop it? Friction among Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds
>>>>> was always likely after the fall of Saddam Hussein. But what has
>>>>> divided
>>>>> the communities most is their differing attitude to foreign occupation.
>>>>> Ending that is essential if this war is to be brought to an end.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Doesn't sound like the French Resistance to me.  ;)
>>>> _______________________________________________