[Peace-discuss] Re: Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 29, Issue 24

[John Bambenek]

Wars have been fought under false pretenses since the beginning of
time, not all regimes are therefore Nazis.  (And I would disagree that
the war was started over false pretences... there's a difference
between being wrong and lying which seems lost on the anti-war
movement).  What has traditionally been considered torture and what
the US allows also have many degrees of magnitude of difference.
Kidnapping people?  That's news.  Locking up combatants?  Yeah,
throughout the whole of history after we got past the kill all
combatants phase, we've locked people up as combatants until
hostitilities have ceased.  That's how war works.  In fact, charging
these people in civilian courts would be very clearly against the
Geneva Conventions you hold so dear.

You also have a penchant for exaggeration on the spying charge.  The
domestic wiretaps?  They weren't so much domestic, for instance.

I think you should read up on the Nazi movement.  It certainly didn't
start out quietly or pulled punches as you seem to think George Bush
is doing.

I've read the interrogation guidelines, as I recall, only one could
even be considered torture in any real sense, and it was pretty light
as torture goes.  Now that doesn't mean I agree with it, but it's a
far cry of cutting people or raping their wives in front of them.  I
just don't see this slippery slope of the minute we call people names
are humiliate them we're on the road to cutting off their fingers and
starting gulags.

However, one key point, the anti-war movement is calling the Bush
Administration a Nazi Regime.  *NOT* a regime that *COULD* become
Nazistic, but one that already has become that.  If you want to make a
slippery slope argument, I'd most likely disagree, but it would be a
valid argument.  What I hear is that we've already gone down the
slipperly slope and unleashed hell on earth.  And that's why people
disregard you, despite the fact that you may have good points, the
constant drumbeat of Bush as Adolf Hitler defies reality and people
just tune out.

And to answer your question, none of the above.  I don't believe we're
on that slope or even if we are, we're certainly not moving down it.
I've seen no evidence, hyperventilating hysterics aside, to show me
otherwise.

j

On 6/21/06, Dan Schreiber <dan at sourcegear.com> wrote:
> So as long as we avoid loading people into boxcars to be gassed, any
> comparison to Nazis is invalid?  Invading other countries under false
> premises, torturing people, spying on our own citizens, kidnapping people
> and keeping them locked up forever without a trial are all fine, as long as
> we don't use boxcars to gas people.
>
> I'm exaggerating of course - we obviously still have (a lot) more restraint
> than the Nazis did.  But great evil doesn't start out that way.  It starts
> out as rationalization or necessary evil and grows as power grows and as
> accountability is kept away.  Too many people are working to make sure there
> is more power and less accountability for rationalizations in the so-called
> war on terror.
>
> I would never have thought that torture would become rationalized as a valid
> interrogation technique by so many Americans.  How many steps are there
> between acceptance of torture and rounding up people to be gassed?  They are
> not the same, but they are on the same slope.
>
> We are sliding downhill, and pointing out that there are Nazis at the bottom
> of this hill is not a hysterical thing to say.  The question for you is:
> Are you helping to stop the slide, or piling more weight on the sled, or
> simply standing on the sideline throwing rocks at people?
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net [mailto:peace-discuss-
> > bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of John Bambenek
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 12:09 PM
> > To: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> > Subject: [Peace-discuss] Re: Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 29, Issue 24
> >
> > Cut to the chase, don't play this carrot game with me.
> >
> > Do some people follow the GOP because they're the GOP, sure.  The same
> > way some people follow the DNC because it's the DNC.
> >
> > Now what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?  How
> > does that translate into people being loaded into box cars to be
> > gassed?
> >
> > John Bambenek wrote:
> > >> I'm not the one who believes we live in a Nazi regime.
> >
> > Dear John,
> >
> > Do you believe that some people use nationalism as a reason
> > for blindly following a leader?
> >
> > Respectfully,
> > -karen medina
> > _______________________________________________
> > Peace-discuss mailing list
> > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> > http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
>
>
>


-- 
j
http://jcb.pentex-net.com