[Peace-discuss] Re: [Peace] minutes of 9/24/06 AWARE meeting

[Chas. 'Mark' Bee]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at uiuc.edu>
To: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Re: [Peace] minutes of 9/24/06 AWARE meeting


> Your reports from your fantasy land

  "You're making it all up!"

 are always at least clinically
> interesting, Mark,

  "You're sick!"

> but usually confusing.

  "I don't get it!"

  I would have thought that if
> you were concerned with the work of AWARE -- i.e., if you wanted to reverse 
> the government's murderous and racist policies -- we'd see you at a meeting 
> or demonstration.

  "You're a disinterested outsider!"

>
> The "lament of someone who didn't get involved when they had the chance"? 
> Are you asking what I did in the war (Vietnam or Iraq)?

  "I refuse to read in context!"

>  Is that relevant?

  "Bow to my straw man!"

>
> "Conflating various anti-war folks' opinions with wartime agressors"? Do I 
> espy through the inventive spelling and grammar a critique of something I 
> wrote?

  "You can't even spell!"

  Perhaps "Darfur Smokescreen" or "A Fragile State,
> recently posted here?

  "I can't even punctuate!"  (I just threw this one in to show why more 
effective email activists don't resort to spelling lames.)

  Maybe it would be interesting to hear what your
> actual objections are.

  "I'm sticking my fingers in my ears, see!"

>
> And amidst your usual insults and oft-proclaimed passion for honesty, your 
> question about evidence shows you haven't even read the correspondence posted 
> to this list about the AWARE panels.

  "You don't know what you're talking about!"

  No, Carl, I understand your inner need to marginalize my criticism with any 
fallacy you can sell, but I've been watching you whine insults from the 
sidelines about this project for almost two weeks, then throw a tantrum and 
refuse to participate - you actually ran off one active participant who'd been 
working on this in good faith, as you are wont to do.

  What you need to understand, Carl, is that when I call you on your bullying, 
my feedback from the local social justice community runs about 3 to 1 positive, 
both on email and face to face.  In other words, the buttons you are trying to 
press (I'm lying, crazy, an outsider, can't communicate, not paying attention, 
etc.) are out of order.  That might help you avoid these embarrassing rote 
recitations in the future.

>
> See you at the demo, Mark. --CGE

  My handicapped placard says probably not.  I do most of my 'activism' 
(passactivism?) playing whack-a-mole on right wing astroturfers on worldwide 
Usenet forums, about an hour a day, and I doubt signs like 'US OUT, UN IN' 
would be found to possess the desired level of absolutism.  However, I may stop 
by - my mom and sister are now convinced WEFT is associated with Main Event 
based on some flyer they were handed but forgot to save ("No wonder he's so 
adamant about this stuff!", sez sis), and while I assume that's due to 
misreading a show blurb, as a member of PR I'd kinda like one of those.


>
>
> Chas. 'Mark' Bee wrote:
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at uiuc.edu>
>> To: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 6:55 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Re: [Peace] minutes of 9/24/06 AWARE meeting
>>
>>
>>> Jan, what would you have said of a Vietnam War teach-in that explicitly 
>>> excluded speakers who felt that the war was not a mistake but fundamentally 
>>> wrong and immoral?  I'd say it was cooked.  Best, CGE
>>
>>  lol  Sounds like the whinging lament of someone who didn't get involved 
>> when they had the chance.
>>
>>  Where's *your* panel, Carl?  (Admittedly, that takes more work - and more 
>> honesty - than routinely conflating various anti-war folks' opinions with 
>> wartime agressors chosen at random, your ol' slap-in-the-face standby.)
>>
>>  Just out of curiosity, where's your evidence that the working group 
>> "explicitly excluded speakers who felt that the war was not a mistake but 
>> fundamentally wrong and immoral?"  And do remember, since you make it your 
>> habit to forget - correlation does not imply causation.  Showing that all 
>> the speakers feel otherwise doesn't fill that bill.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jan & Durl Kruse wrote:
>>>> Carl,
>>>> We do hope you come and not only flier if you wish, but also ask 
>>>> appropriate questions (anti-war voice that you find lacking on the panel).
>>>> AWAREPresents has no intention of excluding voices from any perspective or 
>>>> limiting allowable debate, including a call for a reversal of US support 
>>>> for Israel.  The panel composition was not based upon the possibility of 
>>>> "turning people away" but rather upon the consensus of the working group 
>>>> who planned this forum.  Our intent is to have a civil, informed, and 
>>>> productive discussion on a timely and important topic of interest to many.
>>>> Missing perspectives (there may be many) will be brought forward in the Q 
>>>> & A to encourage the discussion to be as inclusive as possible.
>>>> We hope you will attend and add your voice to the conversation.
>>>> Durl and Jan
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 25, 2006, at 5:47 PM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> ...AWARE presents panel on U.S. Policy on Israel/Palestine:
>>>>>> Frank Knowles bowed out of organizing the panel
>>>>>> Panel reconstituted by Stuart and Gary
>>>>>>  Some comments from Michael Shapiro regarding an effective moderator and
>>>>>> assurances on conditions
>>>>>>  Ken Cuno, Fred Jahar, Jamal Nassar are other panelists
>>>>>>  10/26 7-9PM City Council Chambers, televised for UPTV or taped to be 
>>>>>> televised
>>>>>>  TJ Wilson is slated as moderator
>>>>>>  15 minutes position statements, Q&A after that...
>>>>>
>>>>> I still don't understand why the panel consists only of voices acceptable 
>>>>> to, say, the College Republicans.  In the US today in this matter perhaps 
>>>>> particularly there's an effort to keep the discussion within the limits 
>>>>> of allowable debate, and AWARE Presents seems to be accepting that 
>>>>> requirement.
>>>>>
>>>>> Shouldn't the "Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort" include a voice actually 
>>>>> anti-war -- viz., opposed in principle to US war in the Middle East 
>>>>> (including Lebanon and Gaza)?  "By now [2002] the US-Israel-Turkey 
>>>>> alliance is a centerpiece of US strategy, and Israel is virtually a US 
>>>>> military base, also closely integrated with the militarized US high-tech 
>>>>> economy" (Chomsky).  Will the panel contain any principled objection to 
>>>>> that situation?
>>>>>
>>>>> Shouldn't the "Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort" include a voice actually 
>>>>> anti-racist -- viz., opposed in principle to US support for its principal 
>>>>> client, an explicitly racist state?  Where is our "Anti-Racism Working 
>>>>> Group" to condemn this panel's silence in the face of racism?
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought the point of the panels was to consider what US policy should 
>>>>> be now.  Why is there no one on the panel to call for a reversal of 
>>>>> support for Israel, at least to the extent of demanding that Israel 
>>>>> observe UN resolutions going back almost 40 years?
>>>>>
>>>>> If these opinions are being excluded, as was suggested, in order not to 
>>>>> turn people away, isn't it clear that AWARE has sold its birthright for a 
>>>>> mess of pottage?  This seems to me an acquiescence as bad or worse than 
>>>>> that to Sen. Obama, where AWARE was told to refrain from criticizing a 
>>>>> pro-war senator because he was a black liberal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps some of us should try our hand at a leaflet for this event that 
>>>>> tries to do what the original remit for the panel suggested --  namely, 
>>>>> say what US policy should be in regard to Israel.  If you're interested 
>>>>> in working on such a thing, let me know.  --CGE
>>>>>
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