[Peace-discuss] Re: [sf-core] Re: ... Cost of Iraq War
C. G. Estabrook
galliher at uiuc.edu
Thu Aug 16 10:51:32 CDT 2007
Unfortunately, the timetable was part of a bill funding the war. You
couldn't separate them by wishing they were.
The Democrats were given control of Congress last fall to end the war.
They could have done so by blocking funding for it, and they chose
instead to fund it -- with gestures (like that non-binding timetable)
that attempted to place the blame for it on the administration. their
front groups, with demonstrations against Republican representatives
(only), attempt to cover this murderous betrayal -- which the Democrats
committed not because they were spineless but because they support the
overall policy of which the war in Iraq is a part (as do Clinton and
Obama).
The Democrats have worked strenuously in Congress to neutralize the
dangerous fact that almost three-quarters of Americans oppose the war.
The anti-war movement shouldn't cooperate with that. --CGE
Robert Naiman wrote:
>
>
>
> No, Carl, I did not do that. I organized a demonstration protesting
> Bush's veto for a timetable for withdrawal.
>
> Argue your own position. Don't construct your own version of my position
> as a foil for your own. It's not nice.
>
> I accept that you like this polemical style. If you have a partner who
> also likes it, and others enjoy it as spectators, no-one can have any
> grounds for objecting. But I don't like it. One ought to be able to opt
> out of it.
>
>
> On 8/15/07, *C. G. Estabrook* <galliher at uiuc.edu
> <mailto:galliher at uiuc.edu>> wrote:
>
> Bob, didn't you organize a demonstration protesting Bush's veto of the
> Democrats' bill funding the war?
>
> My memory is that at that demonstration you and I discussed supporting
> that bill. I said that we should urge our representatives not to vote
> for any further funding for the war, and you said that you'd like to do
> that -- but couldn't for reasons of effectiveness: that it was more
> effective to attach timelines, etc. to funding bills.
>
> I don't think it's one argument. There are many reasons for opposing
> the Iraq war, some good, some bad. The latter would include the Richard
> Clarke/Barack Obama arguments that the troops should be used for killing
> different Muslims.
>
> I nevertheless agree that it can be worthwhile to work with groups and
> individuals whose views on the war you don't entirely agree with. But
> at least some of those differences should not be ignored, just for the
> sake of a united front. Given the vast forest of lies that is the
> American political landscape, we should try to tell the truth about our
> politics. I hope trying to do that is the source of my "inevitable
> attacks."
>
> The author of amleft.blog.com <http://amleft.blog.com> this week
> discusses "Michael O'Hanlon and
> Kenneth Pollock, those purported Brookings Institution critics of the
> war who discovered that, gosh golly, the surge is really working, and
> the war is turning in our favor." He notes that, "contrary to the
> public
> reaction, the purpose here is not to legitimize Bush policy, but rather,
> to justify the hawkish Iraq views of nearly all of the Democratic
> presidential candidates, with the exception of Kucinich and Richardson
> [and Gravel]. In other words, as bad as Bush has been, the US is on the
> verge of victory if we just follow the wiser counsel of a Democratic
> president like Hillary or Obama. Hence, the creation of a phony antiwar
> advocacy group by MoveON.org and the Service Employees International
> Union, Americans Against Escalation in Iraq, to forestall calls for
> immediate withdrawal."
>
> I think the well-funded MoveON/AAEI campaign ($6.9 million from DNC
> contributors for "Iraqi Summer" alone I understand) is much more an
> attempt to make the war go away as an issue for the Democratic party
> than it is to end the war (much less to effect a complete withdrawal).
> But that doesn't mean that real antiwar groups shouldn't have anything
> to do with them. (AWARE got some good signs from AAEI for free.)
>
> I also agree that "Making a small contribution to ending the war is the
> most we can usually expect of any particular action that we might take."
> Whether a given action does that is of course a prudential decision,
> but I'm not sure the "moral choice" is as "simple" as you suggest.
> "Will
> attending this event likely contribute, in some small way, towards
> ending the war" in the sense that Clinton and Obama are now talking of
> "ending the war" -- i.e., continuing the US policy of occupation and
> control of the Middle East?
>
> If so, I don't think we should contribute. But it may be even more
> important to talk openly about what the anti-war movement should be
> doing and why. --CGE
>
>
> Robert Naiman wrote:
> >
> > Nothing in the event tomorrow will argue for, or in any way support,
> > funding the war. I have never done so, and will never do so in
> the future.
> >
> > I harbor no belief that invoking the cost is the "best" argument,
> either
> > in a moral or a practical sense. Nor, in fact, do I harbor a
> belief that
> > there is any "best" argument. It is one argument. Different arguments
> > for ending the war many move different people, either to
> opposition, or
> > to intensify opposition, or to take more action on opposition.
> Different
> > arguments may, at different times, capture the attention of news
> media,
> > which is an important objective, although obviously not the only
> one.
> >
> > I don't feel I have to support or defend every word, image,
> metaphor, or
> > argument that comes out of MoveOn, or any other organization, in
> order
> > to make the decision to help organize an event sponsored by
> MoveOn or
> > any other organization. For me, it's a simple moral calculation.
> MoveOn
> > sets up these events across the country. One can help them happen or
> > not. More events are good. More people find out about opposition
> to the
> > war as a result of these events, and may be moved to take more
> actions.
> > Press may come tomorrow. They may not. New people may feel
> addressed -
> > we're holding the event at King School, a place where no such
> event has
> > been held in the past, to my knowledge. One has to try, it seems
> to me,
> > without guarantees of spectacular success - that seems obvious.
> >
> > Similarly, it seems to me, most folks receiving my appeal to
> attend the
> > event tomorrow - if they are not otherwise obligated by a job or
> > something - face a simple moral choice. Will attending this event
> likely
> > contribute, in some small way, towards ending the war? Making a
> small
> > contribution to ending the war is the most we can usually expect
> of any
> > particular action that we might take.
> >
> > In general, I've thought it was not in the best interest of
> humanity to
> > respond to Carl's attacks - it takes time and energy, time and energy
> > which I think I could more productively spend elsewhere - and I
> intend
> > to generally ignore Carl's apparently inevitable attacks in the
> future.
> > But I decided to make an exception to my rule in this case. I may
> very
> > well regret it - live and learn.
> >
> > On 8/15/07, *C. G. Estabrook* <galliher at uiuc.edu
> <mailto:galliher at uiuc.edu>
> > <mailto:galliher at uiuc.edu <mailto:galliher at uiuc.edu>>> wrote:
> >
> > It's certainly worthwhile to organize opposition to the war,
> but is this
> > the best argument to use? Are people really going to change
> their minds
> > about the war because it's costing too much?
> >
> > More importantly, if the war is just, then the US (which can
> afford it)
> > should be paying the price to wage it. But if it's not, then we
> > shouldn't be paying for at all.
> >
> > I don't think the problem is that the US is caught in an
> "unwinnable
> > civil war." It's that we committed a great crime by
> launching the war
> > (the same crime for which the German leaders were hanged
> after WWII) and
> > that we continue the crime by continuing the war.
> >
> > The solution is not to urge our representatives to vote for a
> bill that
> > continues funding the war while "forc[ing the president] to
> accept real
> > timelines to bring our troops home quickly," even if such a
> thing is
> > possible. It's to demand that our represetnatives not vote
> for any
> > funding for this war or for the larger policy of which it is a
> > part. --CGE
> >
> > Robert Naiman wrote:
> > > Just Foreign Policy is co-sponsoring this event together
> with the
> > > National Priorities Project.
> > > Please come and spread the word.
> > > ----
> > > Dear MoveOn Member,
> > >
> > > Did you know that we've already spent more than $456
> BILLION on
> > the war
> > > so far?1 And that it's cost each American household more than
> > $4,100?2
> > > We've learned that when we remind voters of the costs of
> the Iraq
> > > war--and all the important priorities that we can't afford
> because of
> > > it--they're more likely to push Congress to end the war
> quickly.
> > >
> > > So MoveOn members are holding a news conference on Thursday in
> > Urbana to
> > > release a new report on what the war has cost your area. They
> > still need
> > > a few more folks to come. Can you make it?
> > >
> > > Host: Bob N.--fellow MoveOn member
> > > Where: King School, Fairview at Goodwin, Urbana
> > > When: Thursday, Aug 16 2007, 12:00 PM
> > >
> > > Sign up here:
> > > http://political.moveon.org/event/reportrelease/39971
> <http://political.moveon.org/event/reportrelease/39971>
> > > < http://political.moveon.org/event/reportrelease/39971
> <http://political.moveon.org/event/reportrelease/39971>>
> > >
> > > At a news conference like this, it really helps to have a
> crowd
> > of 5-10
> > > people--so it's clear in the TV coverage that folks are really
> > concerned
> > > about the cost of the war. We still need a few more folks
> to come
> > to the
> > > event in Urbana (because it's during the day, it's a little
> > harder for
> > > some people to make it). If you're free, the MoveOn members
> > organizing
> > > this event could really use your help.
> > >
> > > At the events, MoveOn members will hold a press conference for
> > reporters
> > > where we'll release the report, hear from speakers and
> take questions
> > > from the media. Then, we'll deliver the report outlining
> what the
> > war is
> > > costing us to our representative's office so that Congress
> gets the
> > > message: We want an end to this unwinnable civil war in
> Iraq and
> > we want
> > > it now.
> > >
> > > In September, General Petraeus is going to issue his
> report on Iraq.
> > > Congress will then decide whether they're going to give
> the president
> > > another blank check for endless war or whether they'll
> force him to
> > > accept real timelines to bring our troops home quickly.
> > >
> > > So we're going all out this month to make sure Congress
> takes a stand
> > > against this war and votes to bring our troops home in
> September.
> > >
> > > * First, we'll release these reports to remind
> Congress and the
> > > media how outraged we are that we're dumping billions of
> dollars
> > into a
> > > religious civil war that just can't be won.
> > > * Then, throughout the month, we'll work with our
> coalition
> > partners
> > > at Americans Against Escalation in Iraq to turn up the heat on
> > pro-war
> > > members of Congress in their home districts.
> > > * We'll finish the month off strong right before Congress
> > heads back
> > > to D.C. On August 28th--National Take a Stand Day--we'll
> hold vigils
> > > across the country.
> > >
> > > These events are just the first step--and we want to start out
> > with a
> > > bang. Can you make it on Thursday?
> > >
> > > Sign up here:
> > > http://political.moveon.org/event/reportrelease/39971
> <http://political.moveon.org/event/reportrelease/39971>
> > > < http://political.moveon.org/event/reportrelease/39971
> <http://political.moveon.org/event/reportrelease/39971>>
> > >
> > > Thanks for all you do.
> > >
> > > --Nita, Matt, Anna, Natalie and the MoveOn.org Political
> Action Team
> > > Tuesday, August 14th, 2007
> > > ...
>
>
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