[Peace-discuss] Ron Paul etc.

Tue Aug 21 10:39:05 CDT 2007

you would think, on a list like this, that the debate would be whether
we should be supporting Kucinich, the peace candidate, or making a
more pragmatic choice like Edwards, as the best progressive shot at
defeating Hillary, and that the Kucinich forces would have the upper
hand.

But Dennis is now 100% pro-choice, and I suppose some people hold that
against him.

On 8/21/07, Ricky Baldwin <baldwinricky at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Well,
>
> I may have some "unconscious racist sentiments" given
> my rural Mississippi background, but I don't feel
> compelled to make viciously racist remarks like Paul's
> - meaning that I don't think it's that good an excuse.
>
> And I don't think voting takes *that* much energy.
> True, it's probably a waste to spend too much time
> working for a presidential candidate -- of which I
> can't see how Paul is the "best"(*) -- but there are
> of course other, more local, elections, where I think
> we can make a difference.
>
> *(Carl's argument for voting for Paul, because it
> would be the most disruptive vote to the war machine,
> makes sense even if we don't share that appraisal.
> Claiming that Paul is actually the "best" of the lot,
> I think, is a bit of a stretch.)
>
> But I think it's pretty clear that, in terms of impact
> on the war, our time is best spent agitating and
> education and organizing for withdrawal (and
> reparations).
>
> Ricky
>
>
> --- n.dahlheim at mchsi.com wrote:
>
> > Ricky,
> >     Precisely because Ron Paul is not explicitly
> > anti-racist, and probably because he harbors some
> > unconscious racist sentiments given his rural Texas
> > background; I don't think he will receive my vote.
> > But,
> > he is the best of a bad, bad bunch.  I have said
> > earlier, and it bears repeating; voting simply won't
> > do any
> > good since the system is basically run and operated
> > for the benefit of the owner class.  The rest of us
> > are
> > drones and consumers from their perspective.  So, I
> > refuse to participate in a rigged game that wastes
> > my
> > energy when it could be spent far more efficiently
> > to better ends.
> >             Nick
> >
> >
> > ----------------------  Original Message:
> > ---------------------
> > From:    Ricky Baldwin <baldwinricky at yahoo.com>
> > To:      peace discuss
> > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
> > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Ron Paul etc.
> > Date:    Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:18:56 +0000
> >
> > > Ron Paul of course has also lost when he
> > previously
> > > ran for president.
> > >
> > > And maybe here's a good place to mention that
> > AWARE is
> > > not just *anti-war* but *anti-racist* as well, as
> > it
> > > should be.  That seems to rule out Mr. Paul from
> > our
> > > perspective, regardless of his other reprehensible
> > > positions (thanks, Mort).
> > >
> > > Ricky
> > >
> > > --- n.dahlheim at mchsi.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > Having said my piece about libertarianism in my
> > last
> > > > post, outside of Kucinich, Ron Paul is the only
> > > > legitimate anti-war candidate for 2008.  The war
> > is
> > > > the most pressing of all political issues
> > > > confronting
> > > > our gasping Republic, and with Kucinich having
> > > > already been defeated in previous attempts to
> > run
> > > > for
> > > > President, Paul probably will corner much of the
> > > > anti-war sentiment.  At the very least, he will
> > stir
> > > > up
> > > > trouble amongst the Republicans.
> > > >
> > > > But, remember, I don't think the election
> > matters
> > > > much anyway.  The Youtube debates and the
> > > > American Idolization of the whole campaign
> > reveals
> > > > how shamelessly the powerbrokers in this country
> >
> > > > have transformed the political process into a
> > farce
> > > > concealing the basic truth about our society.
> > That
> > > > unsettling truth is this: the politicians and
> > the
> > > > political system operates at the behest and
> > pleasure
> > > > of
> > > > the plutocratic corporate/financier ruling
> > class.
> > > > Perhaps only a couple hundred people constitute
> > the
> > > > core of this class and formulate the policies of
> > > > this country.  They own this country, and they
> > spend
> > > >
> > > > tens and hundreds of billions to lobby for what
> > they
> > > > want.  They will never let a minor inconvenience
> >
> > > > like an election stand in their way of
> > maximizing
> > > > profits and social control.  If I were them, I
> > > > wouldn't let
> > > > a little election obstruct my path.  After all,
> > > > Stalin said that it doesn't matter if people
> > vote so
> > > > long as
> > > > I'm the one that counts them.  Gore Vidal has
> > called
> > > > the Republicans and Democrats essentially two
> > > > wings of the same War Party, and that is what
> > they
> > > > are.  The prestige of holding political office
> > and
> > > > the
> > > > massive ego that accompanies such positions
> > > > invariably corrupts just as Lord Acton had once
> > > > predicted.  So, why are we letting ourselves
> > > > participate in their goofy charade?  Will the
> > > > corporate rulers
> > > > listen to reason or are they blinded by their
> > power?
> > > >  I think the choice is clear: people must say no
> > to
> > > > the political and economic system by forming
> > > > locally-based sustainable local economies.  We
> > > > should, as
> > > > former Dillon Read investment banker and HUD
> > asst.
> > > > director Catherine Austin Fitts says, know our
> > > > banker and know our farmer so that we can work
> > > > together to build a beautiful world worthy of
> > the
> > > > highest of American values.  Let's take control
> > of
> > > > our own future in this way.  I can tell you
> > already;
> > > > I'm
> > > > not voting in this election since voting will
> > > > essentially legitimate a process that utterly
> > lacks
> > > > it.  The
> > > > thefts of the last two presidential elections
> > > > undoubtedly has borne this out.
> > > >      I am not confident, however, that people
> > will
> > > > embrace such a new direction.  Major
> > paradigmatic
> > > > shifts will be ncessary; and I don't see the
> > > > necessary reservoir of willpower, intellect, or
> > > > discipline.  We
> > > > are addled on our cheap, Chinese consumer goods
> > made
> > > > profitable by planned obsolesence.  We are
> > > > drug addicts addicted to Frankenfood and other
> > > > poisonous victuals.  We are hopelessly
> > impoverished
> > > > by
> > > > the omnipresent, ceaseless din of electronic
> > media
> > > > and mass advertising bombarding us with the
> > > > sublminal commands to consume without end.  We
> > are
> > > > lonely and depressed without the social
> > > > networks to rely upon, and so we turn to the
> > cold
> > > > consumer lifestyle as a poor substitute for our
> > very
> > > >
> > > > real human needs.  Yet, I refuse to give up all
> > > > hope; I just think we must be honest about the
> > real
> > > > hurdles we have to face.  The collective mind of
> > the
> > > > American people will not grasp even the gravity
> > of
> > > > the scientific consensus surrounding global
> > warming
> > > > at this late stage in the game.  Who knows where
> >
> > > > the future will lead us when these cultural
> > > > observations receive our attention.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------  Original Message:
> > > > ---------------------
> > > > From:    <illyes at uiuc.edu>
> > > > To:      peace-discuss at anti-war.net
> > > > Subject: [Peace-discuss] Ron Paul etc.
> > > > Date:    Mon, 20 Aug 2007 04:15:55 +0000
> > > >
> > > > > I'm 63 years of age. At about age 30, I took a
> > > > close look at my basically
> > > > > Libertarian opinions, and realized that the
> > > > question of who was in charge was a
> > > > > red herring. It doesn't matter who is in
> > charge.
> > > > It does matter what is done. If
> > > > > we debate the former, we neglect the latter,
> > and
> > > > do great harm.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob
> > > > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Peace-discuss mailing list
> > > > > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
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> > > >
> > >
> >
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> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
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-- 
Robert Naiman
Just Foreign Policy
http://www.justforeignpolicy.org

Just Foreign Policy's current estimate of Iraqi deaths due to violence
since the U.S. invasion - now more than a million:
http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/iraqdeaths.html