[Peace-discuss] Restore Habeas Corpus
n.dahlheim at mchsi.com
n.dahlheim at mchsi.com
Thu Sep 20 09:26:49 CDT 2007
Perhaps you may be right about local communities and socialist communes becoming corrupted, but I
don't see any other basis for radical movements---the populace is soooo stupified and addled I just don't
see from where revolutionary fervor will come. The only thing that will breed a revolution (if it can ever
organize) would be a total economic collapse, in which case violence may lurch out of control.
Nick
---------------------- Original Message: ---------------------
From: "Laurie at advancenet.net" <laurie at advancenet.net>
To: <n.dahlheim at mchsi.com>
Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss] Restore Habeas Corpus
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 04:51:19 +0000
> Being new to this list, I am not sure how it works and if this email is
> coming via the list or via private email to me. I am assuming that it is
> coming via private email.
>
> In response, I would two points.
>
> First, not only are there no revolutionaries when it comes to actions; but
> there are no true radicals (excepting a very small contingent of thinkers)
> when it comes to thinking either. Who calls basic constitutive premises and
> presuppositions into question and treats them as problematic? Having done
> so, who is using counterfactual arguments based on gedanken experiments to
> test those assumptions and see what underlying empirical conditions are
> needed to support those premises and how if we change those conditions
> alternative premises can be postulated upon which alternative worlds of
> reality can be constructed? If one sticks with the currently conceived
> factual world of reality, one can only tinker with things and make reforms
> around the periphery to the preferred rules of the game and not the
> constitutive rules of the game.
>
> Second, I doubt if "Activism should be intensely local and focused on
> building strong local communities of peace and justice; reforming the
> national system is undoubtedly impossible at this juncture" as you contend.
> It seems to me that reforming the local system and communities is equally
> impossible since the existence and survival of said communities are totally
> dependent on the wider and larger systems and communities. Activism these
> days is only effective at reforming preferred rules of the game but not at
> changing basic constitutive rules at any system level; I am afraid that it
> will require extreme radical and revolutionary actions that do not accept or
> fall within the commonly accepted rules of engagement and force people to
> react in ways that they may not otherwise be inclined to. Intimidation may
> be required to bring significant change; but such actions as this or suicide
> bombing runs against the grain of Western reform-minded activists, who would
> abandon SDS types of strategies and tactics. Unfortunately, this sort of
> activism may be what is called for if any sort of significant change is
> possible at a local community or national system level. Utopian socialist
> communities of the 1800's in the US and the communes and collectives of the
> 1960 in the US were unable to survive in a hostile environment without being
> coopted or becoming the monster they were against in order to fight and beat
> the monster they were against.
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: n.dahlheim at mchsi.com [mailto:n.dahlheim at mchsi.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 11:17 PM
> > To: Laurie at advancenet.net
> > Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss] Restore Habeas Corpus
> >
> > Laurie,
> > I like the way you think. The masses are generally distracted with
> > making ends meet and the vapid
> > frivolity of our infotainment culture. The progressives who generally
> > read are most definitely not
> > revolutionaries, but people who benefit from the system. That explains
> > why they will never really look at
> > 9/11 as it reveals the frightful reality present once the curtain is
> > peeled back. I think you expressed it
> > really well. We don't have any revolutionaries, and it doesn't look
> > like any are forthcoming. I think we will
> > just have to take care of our own and watch the system collapse under
> > its own weight. Activism should be
> > intensely local and focused on building strong local communities of
> > peace and justice; reforming the
> > national system is undoubtedly impossible at this juncture.
> > Nick
> >
> >
> > ---------------------- Original Message: ---------------------
> > From: "Laurie at advancenet.net" <laurie at advancenet.net>
> > To: <Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
> > Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss] Restore Habeas Corpus
> > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 04:02:17 +0000
> >
> > > > We are way behind the 8-ball folks
> > >
> > > When were we in front of the 8-ball or even with it?
> > >
> > > > The David Ray Griffin books point
> > > > the finger at the Administration
> > > > pretty convincingly. What I don't get is why so many of you won't
> > look
> > > > at that evidence.
> > >
> > > Part of the problem is that too many progressives are reformers and
> > not
> > > revolutionaries; they tend to be intellectuals who write and read
> > books
> > > aimed at preaching to the choir and feeding their own pockets and
> > egos
> > > rather than engaging in any direct actions. It is all an intellectual
> > > exercise for them and those who they engage in their discussions and
> > > conversations with. The other part of the problem is that the mass
> > audience
> > > in the U.S. are not intellectuals; they do not read or care to engage
> > in
> > > serious analysis. They prefer entertaining television, movies, and
> > > graphics. Hence, they do not read or regard your critical analyses
> > and data
> > > - much less understand it.
> > >
> > > The opposition among the masses tend to be dogmatic believers in
> > their
> > > religion of capitalistic and democratic dogma along with
> > fundamentalist and
> > > literal Christianity and Western European white superiority. Hence,
> > they
> > > will not read or accept anything that does not fit their pre-
> > conceptions or
> > > the rituals and myths of their leaders.
> > >
> > > > If we are still thinking about elections and Congress, we are a
> > joke.
> > >
> > > We have always been a joke; why is this instance different.
> > Elections are
> > > not Democracy; they are only a mechanism for circulating elites with
> > respect
> > > to positions of authority. Representative democracy in a republic
> > such as
> > > the U.S is an excuse following the polls when it is convenient and
> > ignoring
> > > the populous when it is not. Representative democracy is a spectator
> > sport
> > > for the masses and participatory entertainment for elites who only
> > represent
> > > their own established vested interests and organizational survival.
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net [mailto:peace-
> > discuss-
> > > > bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of n.dahlheim at mchsi.com
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 10:08 PM
> > > > To: Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> > > > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Restore Habeas Corpus
> > > >
> > > > We are way behind the 8-ball folks... In National Security
> > > > Presidential Directive 51, the Administration
> > > > has already seized emergency powers a la Hitler in 1933....
> > Congress
> > > > is feckless. When will the people
> > > > on this list even wake up to 911!!! The David Ray Griffin books
> > point
> > > > the finger at the Administration
> > > > pretty convincingly. What I don't get is why so many of you won't
> > look
> > > > at that evidence. Don't you
> > > > think that the Admimistration had a lot to gain from 911? Havent'
> > they
> > > > and their allies in banking, oil,
> > > > and defense made billions and trillions off this "War on Terror?"
> > Come
> > > > on, 19 Arab hijackers completely
> > > > fooled a $13 trillion dollar defense system with the most advanced
> > > > radar and sophisticated air radar
> > > > system in the word? Give me a break. Yeah, and jet fuel caused
> > the
> > > > towers to fall... What about WTC
> > > > 7?
> > > >
> > > > If we are still thinking about elections and Congress, we are a
> > joke.
> > > > Other action is needed; the
> > > > Republic and democracy is pretty much dead. Reason has disappeared
> > in
> > > > the wake of consumerism and
> > > > entertainment... We need alternative ideas, and I want help in
> > forming
> > > > them; but, we need the right
> > > > paradigms first. FIRST, THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION ORCHESTRATED
> > 9/11!
> > > > IF YOU CANNOT SEE THAT,
> > > > NONE OF THE EVENTS FOLLOWING IT REALLY MAKE MUCH SENSE!
> > > >
> > > > Nick
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------- Original Message: ---------------------
> > > > From: Patricia Fettig <pfettig at prairienet.org>
> > > > To: peace at lists.chambana.net, peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> > > > Subject: [Peace-discuss] Restore Habeas Corpus
> > > > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 00:18:13 +0000
> > > >
> > > > > This message was sent to me. I think it is worth considering.
> > > > >
> > > > > Pat
> > > > >
> > > > > This week the Senate is going to vote on Leahy-Specter-Dodd's
> > > > > Restoration of Habeas Corpus Act.
> > > > >
> > > > > We have a very real chance to rollback the Bush Administration's
> > > > assault
> > > > > on the Constitution in a very fundamental way.
> > > > >
> > > > > The vote is going to be a close one, and could very well come
> > down to
> > > > > grassroots participation and pressure.
> > > > >
> > > > > First step: Sign on as a citizen co-sponsor of the bill and ask
> > five
> > > > > people to do the same.
> > > > >
> > > > > From there, we'll receive direction on which Senators need to be
> > > > > persuaded to vote YES on this critical piece of legislation.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://restore-habeas.org/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > http://restore-habeas.org
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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