[Peace-discuss] Restore Habeas Corpus

[Laurie]

> IF YOU CANNOT SEE THAT, NONE OF THE EVENTS FOLLOWING IT REALLY MAKE MUCH
SENSE!

With respect to this statement or conclusion, it just might be that: NONE OF
THE EVENTS FOLLOWING IT REALLY MAKE MUCH SENSE!" under any circumstances be
it Bush administration orchestration or otherwise.

Having said that, I turn to Ricky's reply.  I am inclined to agree with you
up to a point.  First, I agree with your first two paragraphs and with your
notion of "blowback" in paragraph three; but I think the "blowback" was not
necessarily due to the reasons you state per se (i.e.," the "Afghan trap"
the US government set for the Soviets way back when, in the process helping
set up the networks and train some of the characters that have become more
familiar since 9-11-01").  

The "blowback" was an instance of the chickens coming home to roost where
the US was finally receiving on its home turf the types of covert actions
and proxy terrorism it had been exporting to other places all around the
world for decades by those whose training and understanding of terroristic
strategies was derived from watching the US in action as well as being
instructed by US advisors and consultants on how to fight when the odds and
resources are against you via terrorism, covert action, proxy warriors, and
subversion.  I am surprised that it did not come back to haunt the US much
earlier in the 1950's, 1960's, and on up to 2001 to a much greater extent
and with much greater frequency than was the case.

As for the third paragraph concerning theories as to 9/11 and who did what,
I generally am inclined to stay away from the whole issue; but on this
occasion, I will only say that I am not inclined to believe that the Bush
administration caused or orchestrated the event as some are want to claim;
but I do think that the Bush administration, as Ricky suggests, did take
full advantage of the incident.  Going one step further, I do think that the
Bush administration and other did play an active major role in covering-up
many of the events and foul-ups that took place after the incident as well
as during the event.  I view 9/11 as being similar to Katrina in that
regard.  The Bush administration did not orchestrate the storm; but it sure
did act incompetently with respect to its actions regarding the handling of
the storm and then proceeded to actively and proactively cover-up its
mishandling of that storm event.

I also think that I would support the statement in the third paragraph that
"It's all
speculation and assumption based on things they claim don't make sense in
the official story, as if there were only two possible explanations -
eliminate one, and you're left with the other" with a few qualifications. I
do not think that it is all speculation and assumption; I think that there
is some empirical evidence and data along with contradictory official claims
and statements whose veracity and sensibleness is questionable and
problematic.  It is the interpretation of that empirical evidence and date
that is open to a variety of theoretical explanations; and thus, it, like
the official line, is open to question with no way certain to prove or
disprove any of the interpretations - let alone the facticity of the
evidence.

I do think that the law of the excluded middle is not the applicable logical
model to use in making decisions and evaluations.  Either/or does not cut
it.  The logic is more Boolean with the events of 9/11 conforming more to
chaos theory than to causal theory.  Having said my bit, I am out of this
discussion of 9/11.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net [mailto:peace-discuss-
> bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Ricky Baldwin
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 2:01 PM
> To: Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss] Restore Habeas Corpus
> 
> FIRST, THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION ORCHESTRATED
> > > 9/11!
> > > > > IF YOU CANNOT SEE THAT,
> > > > > > > > > > IF YOU CANNOT SEE THAT,
> > > > > NONE OF THE EVENTS FOLLOWING IT REALLY MAKE MUCH SENSE! 
> 
> Not so.
> 
> The events that followed make perfect (horrific) sense if you've been
> paying attention for the
> last couple of decades, or even less.  The Bush Administration with
> less popular support than
> almost any president in recent memory, from day one, saw an opportunity
> and seized on it.  They
> immediately began to implement the agenda they'd been pushing for
> years, which is why events were
> able to unfold so quickly.  All they needed was a bit of PR/public
> opinion management, which -
> given the resources available to them and their class - was not that
> tough.  After all, they don't
> even need to fool anything close to a majority of the population
> (obviously), just enough to keep
> the agenda moving.  This largely involves making the case to elites
> that they are handling the
> situation in an acceptable fashion, but of course some wider
> cooperation is also needed.
> 
> Why did the attacks of 9-11-01 happen?  The technical term, I
> understand, is 'blowback' - the
> unintended consequences of nefarious foreign policy activity, such as
> the "Afghan trap" the US
> government set for the Soviets way back when, in the process helping
> set up the networks and train
> some of the characters that have become more familiar since 9-11-01.
> 
> And of the people (the many people) who are now spreading this theory
> of the Bush Administration
> somehow orchestrating the 9-11-01 attacks - without getting caught!
> even though they couldn't even
> manage to plant 'weapons of mass destruction' in Iraq once the country
> was occupied - none to my
> knowledge has provided a single scrap of evidence.  It's all
> speculation and assumption based on
> things they claim don't make sense in the official story, as if there
> were only two possible
> explanations - eliminate one, and you're left with the other.
> 
> That's about the level of logic the Bush Administration expects us to
> accept.  We shouldn't.
> 
> Ricky
> 
> --- n.dahlheim at mchsi.com wrote:
> 
> > Perhaps you may be right about local communities and socialist
> communes becoming corrupted, but
> > I
> > don't see any other basis for radical movements---the populace is
> soooo stupified and addled I
> > just don't
> > see from where revolutionary fervor will come.  The only thing that
> will breed a revolution (if
> > it can ever
> > organize) would be a total economic collapse, in which case violence
> may lurch out of control.
> >
> >   Nick
> >
> >
> > ----------------------  Original Message:  ---------------------
> > From:    "Laurie at advancenet.net" <laurie at advancenet.net>
> > To:      <n.dahlheim at mchsi.com>
> > Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss] Restore Habeas Corpus
> > Date:    Thu, 20 Sep 2007 04:51:19 +0000
> >
> > > Being new to this list, I am not sure how it works and if this
> email is
> > > coming via the list or via private email to me.  I am assuming that
> it is
> > > coming via private email.
> > >
> > > In response, I would two points.
> > >
> > > First, not only are there no revolutionaries when it comes to
> actions; but
> > > there are no true radicals (excepting a very small contingent of
> thinkers)
> > > when it comes to thinking either. Who calls basic constitutive
> premises and
> > > presuppositions into question and treats them as problematic?
> Having done
> > > so, who is using counterfactual arguments based on gedanken
> experiments to
> > > test those assumptions and see what underlying empirical conditions
> are
> > > needed to support those premises and how if we change those
> conditions
> > > alternative premises can be postulated upon which alternative
> worlds of
> > > reality can be constructed?  If one sticks with the currently
> conceived
> > > factual world of reality, one can only tinker with things and make
> reforms
> > > around the periphery to the preferred rules of the game and not the
> > > constitutive rules of the game.
> > >
> > > Second, I doubt if "Activism should be intensely local and focused
> on
> > > building strong local communities of peace and justice; reforming
> the
> > > national system is undoubtedly impossible at this juncture" as you
> contend.
> > > It seems to me that reforming the local system and communities is
> equally
> > > impossible since the existence and survival of said communities are
> totally
> > > dependent on the wider and larger systems and communities. Activism
> these
> > > days is only effective at reforming preferred rules of the game but
> not at
> > > changing basic constitutive rules at any system level; I am afraid
> that it
> > > will require extreme radical and revolutionary actions that do not
> accept or
> > > fall within the commonly accepted rules of engagement and force
> people to
> > > react in ways that they may not otherwise be inclined to.
> Intimidation may
> > > be required to bring significant change; but such actions as this
> or suicide
> > > bombing runs against the grain of Western reform-minded activists,
> who would
> > > abandon SDS types of strategies and tactics.  Unfortunately, this
> sort of
> > > activism may be what is called for if any sort of significant
> change is
> > > possible at a local community or national system level. Utopian
> socialist
> > > communities of the 1800's in the US and the communes and
> collectives of the
> > > 1960 in the US were unable to survive in a hostile environment
> without being
> > > coopted or becoming the monster they were against in order to fight
> and beat
> > > the monster they were against.
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: n.dahlheim at mchsi.com [mailto:n.dahlheim at mchsi.com]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 11:17 PM
> > > > To: Laurie at advancenet.net
> > > > Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss] Restore Habeas Corpus
> > > >
> > > > Laurie,
> > > >     I like the way you think.  The masses are generally
> distracted with
> > > > making ends meet and the vapid
> > > > frivolity of our infotainment culture.  The progressives who
> generally
> > > > read are most definitely not
> > > > revolutionaries, but people who benefit from the system.  That
> explains
> > > > why they will never really look at
> > > > 9/11 as it reveals the frightful reality present once the curtain
> is
> > > > peeled back.  I think you expressed it
> > > > really well.  We don't have any revolutionaries, and it doesn't
> look
> > > > like any are forthcoming.  I think we will
> > > > just have to take care of our own and watch the system collapse
> under
> > > > its own weight.  Activism should be
> > > > intensely local and focused on building strong local communities
> of
> > > > peace and justice; reforming the
> > > > national system is undoubtedly impossible at this juncture.
> > > >            Nick
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------  Original Message:  ---------------------
> > > > From:    "Laurie at advancenet.net" <laurie at advancenet.net>
> > > > To:      <Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
> > > > Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss] Restore Habeas Corpus
> > > > Date:    Wed, 19 Sep 2007 04:02:17 +0000
> > > >
> > > > > > We are way behind the 8-ball folks
> > > > >
> > > > > When were we in front of the 8-ball or even with it?
> > > > >
> > > > > > The David Ray Griffin books point
> > > > > > the finger at the Administration
> > > > > > pretty convincingly.  What I don't get is why so many of you
> won't
> > > > look
> > > > > > at that evidence.
> > > > >
> > > > > Part of the problem is that too many progressives are reformers
> and
> > > > not
> > > > > revolutionaries; they tend to be intellectuals who write and
> read
> > > > books
> > > > > aimed at preaching to the choir and feeding their own pockets
> and
> > > > egos
> > > > > rather than engaging in any direct actions. It is all an
> intellectual
> > > > > exercise for them and those who they engage in their
> discussions and
> > > > > conversations with.  The other part of the problem is that the
> mass
> > > > audience
> > > > > in the U.S. are not intellectuals; they do not read or care to
> engage
> > > > in
> > > > > serious analysis.  They prefer entertaining television, movies,
> and
> > > > > graphics.  Hence, they do not read or regard your critical
> analyses
> > > > and data
> > > > > - much less understand it.
> > > > >
> > > > > The opposition among the masses tend to be dogmatic believers
> in
> > > > their
> > > > > religion of capitalistic and democratic dogma along with
> > > > fundamentalist and
> > > > > literal Christianity and Western European white superiority.
> Hence,
> > > > they
> > > > > will not read or accept anything that does not fit their pre-
> > > > conceptions or
> > > > > the rituals and myths of their leaders.
> > > > >
> > > > > >  If we are still thinking about elections and Congress, we
> are a
> > > > joke.
> > > > >
> > > > > We have always been a joke; why is this instance different.
> > > > Elections are
> > > > > not Democracy; they are only a mechanism for circulating elites
> with
> > > > respect
> > > > > to positions of authority.  Representative democracy in a
> republic
> > > > such as
> > > > > the U.S is an excuse following the polls when it is convenient
> and
> > > > ignoring
> > > > > the populous when it is not.  Representative democracy is a
> spectator
> > > > sport
> > > > > for the masses and participatory entertainment for elites who
> only
> > > > represent
> > > > > their own established vested interests and organizational
> survival.
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net [mailto:peace-
> > > > discuss-
> > > > > > bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of n.dahlheim at mchsi.com
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 10:08 PM
> > > > > > To: Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Restore Habeas Corpus
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We are way behind the 8-ball folks...  In National Security
> > > > > > Presidential Directive 51, the Administration
> > > > > > has already seized emergency powers a la Hitler in 1933....
> > > > Congress
> > > > > > is feckless.  When will the people
> > > > > > on this list even wake up to 911!!!  The David Ray Griffin
> books
> > > > point
> > > > > > the finger at the Administration
> > > > > > pretty convincingly.  What I don't get is why so many of you
> won't
> > > > look
> > > > > > at that evidence.  Don't you
> > > > > > think that the Admimistration had a lot to gain from 911?
> Havent'
> > > > they
> > > > > > and their allies in banking, oil,
> > > > > > and defense made billions and trillions off this "War on
> Terror?"
> > > > Come
> > > > > > on, 19 Arab hijackers completely
> > > > > > fooled a $13 trillion dollar defense system with the most
> advanced
> > > > > > radar and sophisticated air radar
> > > > > > system in the word?  Give me a break.  Yeah, and jet fuel
> caused
> > > > the
> > > > > > towers to fall...  What about WTC
> > > > > > 7?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  If we are still thinking about elections and Congress, we
> are a
> > > > joke.
> > > > > > Other action is needed; the
> > > > > > Republic and democracy is pretty much dead.  Reason has
> disappeared
> > > > in
> > > > > > the wake of consumerism and
> > > > > > entertainment... We need alternative ideas, and I want help
> in
> > > > forming
> > > > > > them; but, we need the right
> > > > > > paradigms first.   FIRST, THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION
> ORCHESTRATED
> > > > 9/11!
> > > > > > IF YOU CANNOT SEE THAT,
> > > > > > NONE OF THE EVENTS FOLLOWING IT REALLY MAKE MUCH SENSE!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                       Nick
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----------------------  Original Message:  ------------------
> ---
> > > > > > From:    Patricia Fettig <pfettig at prairienet.org>
> > > > > > To:      peace at lists.chambana.net, peace-
> discuss at lists.chambana.net
> > > > > > Subject: [Peace-discuss] Restore Habeas Corpus
> > > > > > Date:    Wed, 19 Sep 2007 00:18:13 +0000
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > This message was sent to me. I think it is worth
> considering.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Pat
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This week the Senate is going to vote on Leahy-Specter-
> Dodd's
> > > > > > > Restoration of Habeas Corpus Act.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We have a very real chance to rollback the Bush
> Administration's
> > > > > > assault
> > > > > > > on the Constitution in a very fundamental way.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The vote is going to be a close one, and could very well
> come
> > > > down to
> > > > > > > grassroots participation and pressure.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > First step: Sign on as a citizen co-sponsor of the bill and
> ask
> > > > five
> > > > > > > people to do the same.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >  From there, we'll receive direction on which Senators need
> to be
> > > > > > > persuaded to vote YES on this critical piece of
> legislation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://restore-habeas.org/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://restore-habeas.org
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
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