[Peace-discuss] Hedges: only a candidate who calls for an immediate end to the war...

Fri Aug 1 17:42:54 CDT 2008

Sorry, as I said, that response belonged w/ a different email. Inappropriate response for this one. As I also said, Obama's record on all these issues is better than McCain's. Perfect? Not by a long shot. We will still have a lot of work to do. 

Fear "mongering" implies that it's a phony tactic that I'm using to get your support, and that there's really nothing to be afraid of. I am TERRIFIED of a McCain win -- Supreme Court picks alone justify my terror. Furthermore, I don't understand how a true progressive can feel otherwise.
 --Jenifer 

--- On Fri, 8/1/08, Tom Abram <tabram at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Tom Abram <tabram at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Hedges: only a candidate who calls for an immediate end to the war...
To: jencart13 at yahoo.com, kmedina at illinois.edu, "Neil Parthun" <lennybrucefan at gmail.com>, "peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 12:37 PM

Uh, he's not pointing out a failure to wear a lapel pin or making a
slip up in a speech.  It's not gotcha politics.  It's a serious
criticism of his failure to support some basic progressive positions:
ending the wars, not starting new ones, single-payer health care,
serious action on global warming, etc.  This isn't nyah nyah, this is
a serious discussion.  You're failing to address our concerns, but
just continuing the fear mongering.  There has been little difference
between the Democrat congress and the previous Republican congress.  I
don't see you trying to address this either.  Just sprinklings of
hopedust.

Tom

On 8/1/08, Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> This is too SERIOUS to play these nyah nyah gotcha games. Look at the
whole
> picture and the projection into the future if McCain wins.
>  --Jenifer
>
> --- On Fri, 8/1/08, Tom Abram <tabram at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Tom Abram <tabram at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Hedges: only a candidate who calls for an
> immediate end to the war...
> To: jencart13 at yahoo.com, kmedina at illinois.edu, "Neil Parthun"
> <lennybrucefan at gmail.com>, "peace-discuss"
<peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
> Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 12:17 PM
>
> Actually, in Illinois our choices are:
>
> McCain - R
> Obama - D
> McKinney - G
> Nader - I
> Barr - L
> Baldwin - C
> Polachek - New
>
> It doesn't have to be a dichotomy.  How brands of cereal do we have?
> Do we go to a grocery store thinking Frosted Flakes or NOT-Frosted
> Flakes?  Isn't it more important to have choice for president than
> cereal?
>
>  I'm all for electoral reform so our system is more representative of
> our citizenry.  But when I tried to do that locally, it was blocked by
> the Democrats themselves!   Plus, they didn't stand up to election
> fraud in Florida, Ohio, and elsewhere.  I guess it's easier to
> scapegoat than take responsibility for their own failures.
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> On 8/1/08, Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Folks,
>> Our choice is not McCain or McKinney... or McCain or (shudder) Nader
(aka
>> person who sought right-wing Repub funding for his last run)... or
McCain
> or
>> Kucinich... or McCain or Paul!! Our choice is McCain or NOT McCain,
aka
>> Obama. It's too late for idealism. The moment to get real is now.
>>  --Jenifer
>>
>> --- On Fri, 8/1/08, Tom Abram <tabram at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> From: Tom Abram <tabram at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Hedges: only a candidate who calls for an
>> immediate end to the war...
>> To: jencart13 at yahoo.com
>> Cc: kmedina at illinois.edu, "Neil Parthun"
> <lennybrucefan at gmail.com>,
>> "peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
>> Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 9:46 AM
>>
>>
>>
>> Look, a plethora of Democrats directly voted for the war.  Nader never
> voted
>> yes to invade Iraq.  He and the Green Party aren't the ones who
> continues to
>> the fund the war (that would be the Republicans and Democrats). 
It's
>> delusional to pretend the Democrats weren't complicit in the wars.
>>
>> I agree that there's a time for idealism and a time for reality. 
But
> I
>> disagree about which is which.  It's idealistic and fantastical to
> believe
>> that a candidate (Obama) who has continually stated his support for
more
>> war, lack of support for a true single-payer non-corporate welfare
health
>> care system, and expansion of coal and nuclear power plants is going
to go
>> back on these statements and financiers.  I'm going for reality,
which
> is
>> based on the statements and positions of the candidates and how they
align
>> with my own vision for America.  Voting for a candidate that makes
>> statements opposing your own values is permission to continue doing
so.
> For
>> those still clinging to the hope of the Democratic Party, verbally
>> criticizing the policies of their candidates gives them a reason to
>> reconsider.  A blank check will not.  Either Obama's positions
truly
> are
>> awful, or he is lying to the American people with the intention of
> carrying
>> out his true
>>  hidden progressive agenda.  Aren't we mad at Bush for lying to us
> about
>> Iraq?  Is there a double standard for the Democrats?  Can they lie to
us
> all
>> they want and whisper sweet nothings into our ears and we'll
continue
> to
>> fill their bubbles on the ballot?  I hope not.
>>
>> Former Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney received the presidential
nomination
>> of Green Party several weeks ago and will be on the ballot in
Illinois.  I
>> urge all to consider voting for her as well.  She wants our troops
home
> now,
>> all of them, from every corner of the globe.  She supports a true
>> single-payer universal health care system and an aggressive strategy
to
>> address global warming.  She's not in the pockets of any
corporations
>> either.  If you support these things, vote reality.  Vote McKinney.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 9:12 AM, Jenifer Cartwright
> <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yeah, Nader said no difference betw Gore and Bush, and look what that
got
>> us. Okay, you and I (and Hedges) are still alive and well, but the
> millions
>> of Iraqis dead or displaced, the thousands of Americans dead or
disabled,
>> those who have lost their homes, jobs, health care and other benefits
beg
> to
>> differ.
>>
>> Are there more similarities than we'd like between Obama and
McCain,
> esp wrt
>> exiting Iraq? Yes. Are there also huge differences on other key
issues,
> esp
>> domestic ones? Yes.
>>
>> There is a time for idealism and a time for reality. That time is now.
On
>> behalf of those sharing the planet w/ you, choose reality... and
continue
> to
>> work for the ideal -- you'll have a better chance of getting
closer to
> that
>> w/ Obama.
>>  --Jenifer
>>
>> --- On Fri, 8/1/08, Neil Parthun <lennybrucefan at gmail.com>
wrote:
>>
>> From: Neil Parthun <lennybrucefan at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Hedges: only a candidate who calls for an
>> immediate end to the war...
>> To: kmedina at illinois.edu
>> Cc: "peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
>> Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 2:23 AM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> As the late, great Eugene V. Debs stated: "I'd rather vote
for
> something I
>> want and not get it than vote for something I don't and get
it."
>>
>>
>> McCain is open about his imperialism in the Middle East.  People have,
and
>> rightly so, criticized McCain's imperialist linguistics/policies.
> However,
>> it is a misconception and disingenuous to state that the wars in Iraq
and
>> Afghanistan are "Republican wars" or "Bush's
> wars".
>>
>>
>> Let's not forget that Congressional Republicans and Democrats
> authorized the
>> use of force, authorized the Nuremburg Tribunal violating invasion of
a
>> country that did not attack us and has continued to fund an illegal,
> immoral
>> and imperialist occupation.  The Democrats seized Congressional power
in
>> 2006 with the masses' dissatisfaction with the Iraq war.  What
have
> they
>> done since they've seized power?  A whole lot of nothing major to
end
> the
>> war that they were given the power to stop.
>>
>>
>> The idea that Nader is evil is absolutely laughable and an unfair
>> characterization.  All left of center votes are not already prescribed
to
>> the Democratic party.  As I watch a party continue to fund an illegal,
>> imperialist war...As I watch a party sell out the 4th Amendment while
>> accepting AT&T funding/gifts for the DNC...As I watch a party
given
> the
>> power to end the war yet do nothing...As I watch a party who watches
>> flagrant high crimes and misdemeanors taking place on such an epic and
> open
>> scale that it boggles the imagination and does nothing.  As I watch
all of
>> this, it is quite clear why people vote for 3rd party candidates. 
They
> are
>> tired of their interests being sold out after being co-opted (see the
>> anti-war mandate of '06, for example).
>>
>>
>> If anybody wants to place the blame on so-called spoilers, blame it
the
>> Democratic party and Obama.  These candidates need to earn the votes
of
>> people.  Obama's candidacy should have a warning signal: This
> candidate
>> makes wide right turns.  Obama is for a continued military presence in
the
>> Middle East despite the Rand Corporation stating that a military
operation
>> is not the optimum way to combat terrorism.  Obama is for the
"White
> Man's
>> Burden" style of imperialism -- the idea that we can't dare
leave
>> Afghanistan or Iraq because the Afghanis and the Iraqis sure as Hell
> don't
>> know how or can't form their own government and security
themselves.
> I sure
>> as Hell can't vote for that.
>>
>>
>> Obama has also stated that he would attack and bomb Pakistan if they
> didn't
>> do as we said.  He's supported the apartheid regime in Israel.
> He's for
>> aggressive wars as well and seems to be for the "Bush
Doctrine"
> of
>> aggressive wars but in alternative forums
(Afghanistan/Pakistan/Palestine,
>> not Iraq).
>>
>>
>> But we're supposed to hold our nose and vote Obama?  The idea of
> lesser
>> evilism has led to numerous problems and made the Democratic party the
>> opportunist that capitalizes on outrage for their own electoral gain
> rather
>> than fixing the problems that so many are concerned about.  It is the
>> graveyard of social movements.
>>
>>
>> I agree with Hedges:  I can't vote for a candidate that
doesn't
> call for an
>> immediate end to this blatant imperialism.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> There is only this moment,
>>
>>      Neil
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  We absolutely have to refuse to attribute any kind of permanency to
that
>> which is simply because it is.
>> [angela v. davis, 1944-]
>>
>>
>> The point is, the only real tools we have are our eyes and our heads.
Its
>> not the act of seeing with our own eyes alone; its correctly
comprehending
>> what we see.
>> [warren ellis, 1968-]_______________________________________________
>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

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