[Peace-discuss] U.S. House Passes Resolution Apologizing for Slavery

[Jenifer Cartwright]

Game point, Laurie (sorry, Wayne).
 --Jenifer

--- On Sat, 8/2/08, LAURIE <LAURIE at ADVANCENET.NET> wrote:

From: LAURIE <LAURIE at ADVANCENET.NET>
Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss] U.S. House Passes Resolution Apologizing for Slavery
To: "'E. Wayne Johnson'" <ewj at pigs.ag>, peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
Date: Saturday, August 2, 2008, 10:55 PM








>Those rights are God given natural rights, as you say.
>(...endowed by the Creator with certain unalienable rights...life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.)


 
Not to prolong this, but once you base your position on a religious or metaphysical belief, there is no longer anything to discuss.  One either agrees or disagrees with the religious or metaphysical presuppositions upon which you base your position.  I disagree with them.
 
>The invisible hand of God working in the lives of individuals is to me the path to harmony.
 
(Smile)  It appears the invisible hand of God is not working so well these days; either God is an impotent God as compared to the power and effectiveness of man’s hand or the hand does not exist.  Otherwise, despite all the temptations of society and collective civil living, mankind and society could not screw up God’s plan for harmony among individuals and groups of individuals.  Adam Smith’s magic hand also did not do such a good job in the workings of capitalism; and the capitalists found they needed to institute and establish various controls into the system to keep it working.
 
>The need for "small" and "local" at what ever level of organization that there might be in government was obvious to the ancients
>and it is true today.  Only tyranny needs empires.
 
That is unrealistic unless one wants to return to and maintain a pre-industrial society and economy devoid of all the current technologies, medical advances, high levels of productivity and trade between different local and not sop local communities.  “Small” and “local” have little to do in terms of necessary or sufficient conditions that preclude tyranny.  Whether or not one viewed one’s small local community as tyrannical depended on ones status and place in that community.  If you were a slave, I would imagine that you would view the small local tribe, city state, or community as being oppressive and tyrannical. By the way, the opposite of tyranny is not democracy (direct or representative democracy).  Not all citizens in small localized democracies were allowed to participate in community decision-making and policy formation (various classes of individuals were precluded from engaging in governance although they were considered
 citizens and were expected to comply with community decisions and policies made by those who were permitted to participate.  If they did not comply, they were sanctioned or banished.
 
Tyranny does not need empire to be tyranny.  Tribal societies were small in population and geographic territory and local in nature; but they were tyrannical and required a very high degree of conformity and low degree of individualism.  Indeed, they were like ant colonies.
 
>Large federal government insinuating itself with coercion into every level of life is pathologic.  I dont want
>the people of Chicago running my life here in Urbana and I most certainly do not desire any input whatsoever from the 
>Procrustean bed thinking of people several hundred to several thousand miles in the distance.
 
Yes, all society and civilization as well as all life is pathologic in some ways and to a more or lesser degree.  Even utopia may not be perfect.  I would surmise that you would not want the people in Urbana, or even in your neighborhood, or on your block, or in your house, or in your family running your life or having input in your life except on your terms.  Unfortunately, if they took the same position as you, there would be nothing but constant domestic battles within households and among neighbors with each individual denying the others the right to have any input or influence over how the other runs their life.
 



From: E. Wayne Johnson [mailto:ewj at pigs.ag] 
Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 4:41 PM
To: LAURIE
Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] U.S. House Passes Resolution Apologizing for Slavery
 
LAURIE wrote: 
I wonder where, if not from society, do you derive your civil rights to individuality, to freedom to act, and to choose in your own behalf.  
You are not going to tell me that those rights are “god given,” natural rights, inherent rights while the social civic responsibilities are not?
Those rights are God given natural rights, as you say.
(...endowed by the Creator with certain unalienable rights...life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.)

 Of course such rights do not come from the society. 
The society has no power whatsoever to give such rights, but it certainly is able and willing to take them away.  

The invisible hand of God working in the lives of individuals is to me the path to harmony.

The need for "small" and "local" at  what ever level of organization that there might be in government was obvious to the ancients
and it is true today.  Only tyranny needs empires.

Large federal government insinuating itself with coercion into every level of life is pathologic.  I dont want
the people of Chicago running my life here in Urbana and I most certainly do not desire any input whatsoever from the 
Procrustean bed thinking of people several hundred to several thousand miles in the distance.

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