[Peace-discuss] U.S. House Passes Resolution Apologizing for Slavery

[John W.]

Match point, Wayne (sorry, Laurie).
-John


On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 10:55 PM, LAURIE <LAURIE at advancenet.net> wrote:

>  >Those rights are God given natural rights, as you say.
> >(...endowed by the Creator with certain unalienable rights...life,
> liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.)
>
>
>
> Not to prolong this, but once you base your position on a religious or
> metaphysical belief, there is no longer anything to discuss.  One either
> agrees or disagrees with the religious or metaphysical presuppositions upon
> which you base your position.  I disagree with them.
>
>
>
> >The invisible hand of God working in the lives of individuals is to me the
> path to harmony.
>
>
>
> (Smile)  It appears the invisible hand of God is not working so well these
> days; either God is an impotent God as compared to the power and
> effectiveness of man's hand or the hand does not exist.  Otherwise, despite
> all the temptations of society and collective civil living, mankind and
> society could not screw up God's plan for harmony among individuals and
> groups of individuals.  Adam Smith's magic hand also did not do such a good
> job in the workings of capitalism; and the capitalists found they needed to
> institute and establish various controls into the system to keep it working.
>
>
>
> >The need for "small" and "local" at what ever level of organization that
> there might be in government was obvious to the ancients
> >and it is true today.  Only tyranny needs empires.
>
>
>
> That is unrealistic unless one wants to return to and maintain a
> pre-industrial society and economy devoid of all the current technologies,
> medical advances, high levels of productivity and trade between different
> local and not sop local communities.  "Small" and "local" have little to do
> in terms of necessary or sufficient conditions that preclude tyranny.
> Whether or not one viewed one's small local community as tyrannical depended
> on ones status and place in that community.  If you were a slave, I would
> imagine that you would view the small local tribe, city state, or community
> as being oppressive and tyrannical. By the way, the opposite of tyranny is
> not democracy (direct or representative democracy).  Not all citizens in
> small localized democracies were allowed to participate in community
> decision-making and policy formation (various classes of individuals were
> precluded from engaging in governance although they were considered citizens
> and were expected to comply with community decisions and policies made by
> those who were permitted to participate.  If they did not comply, they were
> sanctioned or banished.
>
>
>
> Tyranny does not need empire to be tyranny.  Tribal societies were small in
> population and geographic territory and local in nature; but they were
> tyrannical and required a very high degree of conformity and low degree of
> individualism.  Indeed, they were like ant colonies.
>
>
>
> >Large federal government insinuating itself with coercion into every level
> of life is pathologic.  I dont want
> >the people of Chicago running my life here in Urbana and I most certainly
> do not desire any input whatsoever from the
> >Procrustean bed thinking of people several hundred to several thousand
> miles in the distance.
>
>
>
> Yes, all society and civilization as well as all life is pathologic in some
> ways and to a more or lesser degree.  Even utopia may not be perfect.  I
> would surmise that you would not want the people in Urbana, or even in your
> neighborhood, or on your block, or in your house, or in your family running
> your life or having input in your life except on your terms.  Unfortunately,
> if they took the same position as you, there would be nothing but constant
> domestic battles within households and among neighbors with each individual
> denying the others the right to have any input or influence over how the
> other runs their life.
>
>
>
> *From:* E. Wayne Johnson [mailto:ewj at pigs.ag]
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 02, 2008 4:41 PM
> *To:* LAURIE
> *Cc:* peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] U.S. House Passes Resolution Apologizing
> for Slavery
>
>
>
> LAURIE wrote:
>
> I wonder where, if not from society, do you derive your civil rights to
> individuality, to freedom to act, and to choose in your own behalf.
> You are not going to tell me that those rights are "god given," natural
> rights, inherent rights while the social civic responsibilities are not?
>
> Those rights are God given natural rights, as you say.
> (...endowed by the Creator with certain unalienable rights...life, liberty,
> and the pursuit of happiness.)
>
>  Of course such rights do not come from the society.
> The society has no power whatsoever to give such rights, but it certainly
> is able and willing to take them away.
>
> The invisible hand of God working in the lives of individuals is to me the
> path to harmony.
>
> The need for "small" and "local" at  what ever level of organization that
> there might be in government was obvious to the ancients
> and it is true today.  Only tyranny needs empires.
>
> Large federal government insinuating itself with coercion into every level
> of life is pathologic.  I dont want
> the people of Chicago running my life here in Urbana and I most certainly
> do not desire any input whatsoever from the
> Procrustean bed thinking of people several hundred to several thousand
> miles in the distance.
>
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