[Peace-discuss] Will I.P. elect McCain?

[John W.]

On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 8:18 AM, Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com> wrote:

My point was that in considering how dogmatic and strident to be about
> the insignificance of "at best stopgap" reforms, it's ok to give some
> deference to the question of whether one belongs to the category(s) of
> people who have benefited or were intended to benefit from the "at
> best stopgap" reforms.
>
> if the folks who were the stated intended beneficiaries of such
> reforms, by and large, hold them to be meaningful, that ought to cool
> somewhat the ardor of those who wish to dismiss them as meaningless.


I would qualify this in one important way.  There is a segment of the
African-American population who benefited greatly from affirmative action
during its brief heyday, and who would now like to deny it to other
minorities.  Clarence Thomas is a prime example.

I agree with Carl (I think) that if there is to be any sort of affirmative
action, it should be class- or income-based rather than exclusively race- or
gender-based.

John Wason




> On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 5:41 AM, Karen Medina <kmedina at illinois.edu> wrote:
>

> > Jenifer,
> >
> > I think Bob Naiman's point is that sometimes the rules help make the
> change, and without them things would be much the same as they were.
> >
> > Societal rules, like seggregation, do take a long time to reverse. And
> sometimes we need rules like affirmative action to counter the seggretation
> rules. Does affirmative action work? Well at least we can talk to each other
> on the train.
> >
> > Knowing when to let the rules fade is not easy.
> >
> > I'll just point out a few other things that society still accepts without
> much of a fight:
> > * Women still do not have equal pay. In some places, yes, but overall,
> not yet.
> > * Neighbors still look the other way with spouse abuse, elder abuse, and
> child abuse.
> > * Homeless people are treated as trash.
> >
> > Yes, the rules that are supposed to move us in the right direction can be
> taken advantage of (just as an example, a woman can wrongly accuse a man of
> sexual assault in order to hurt the man), and that is most unfortunate. But,
> overall, we hope that the rules help more than they hurt.
> >
> > There are many places that we have given power to the person who society
> has made weak. Yes, the new power will be abused. All power is abused.
> >
> > Somehow, we need to find a balance.
> >
> > -karen medina
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---- Original message ----
> >>Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 23:24:46 -0500
> >>From: "Robert Naiman" <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com>
> >>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Will I.P. elect McCain?
> >>To: "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at uiuc.edu>
> >>Cc: peace-discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
> >>
> >>once, many many moons ago, when i was a young radical whippersnapper,
> >>i happened to be on the amtrak train between champaign and chicago,
> >>and fell into a conversation about politics with a middle-aged
> >>african-american guy.
> >>
> >>in the course of the conversation, i expounded views not dissimilar to
> >>the ones that carl is currently expounding about affirmative action.
> >>
> >>he patiently waited for me to finish ranting, and said,
> >>
> >>"well, you have a point...on the other hand..." - here he paused for
> >>dramatic effect - "we _are_ sitting together on this train, having
> >>this conversation." then he smiled.
> >>
> >>of course, i had to concede that he also had a point.
> >>
> >>i think that interaction permanently cured me of being ultra-left
> >>about affirmative action.
>
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