[Peace-discuss] Kinzer: Surge Diplomacy, Not Troops, in Afghanistan

[E. Wayne Johnson]

You are right Mort. 
My estimation of the size and intensity of that critical mass of people 
is what is fueling my concerns.
I am thinking that we need to be moving ahead with thoughts on plan B, 
given my expectation
that we will not be able to turn the tide with what I perceive as being 
too feeble a response...   more on this later.

Morton K. Brussel wrote:
>  I believe you do not know /for sure/ how Obama et al. would react if 
> there were sufficiently large and organized (non violent) protests 
> against his articulated policies in Afghanistan (and elsewhere). Since 
> you can't be sure, is it not better to hope and act then simply to sit 
> on your hands. Hope can be a mobilizing force. 
>
> Your assertions of futility may turn out to be true, even probable, 
> but so far they are unproven. Your caveat  "until a significant event 
> or series of significant events causes it to reconsider" can include 
> protests /demands from a mass of people. 
>
> --mkb
>
>  
> On Dec 8, 2008, at 4:59 PM, E. Wayne Johnson wrote:
>
>> Certainly we don't need to go back to bed but maybe we need to go 
>> back to the drawing board.
>>
>> I agree that we need to do what ever we can to try to shut down the 
>> machine, but we dont
>> need to be expending all of our efforts resources and ambition upon 
>> slinging ourselves uselessly upon the
>> cliffs.  The Obama administration rather obviously has its mind made 
>> up and will continue upon
>> its course until a significant event or series of significant events 
>> causes it to reconsider.
>>
>> They may even encourage a national debate on the merits of 
>> interventional wars and then go on their way as planned.
>>
>> THEY the powers that be have already assessed the size strength 
>> significance power of the anti-war movement and
>> THEY consider much of the anti-war militants have already been sung 
>> softly to sleep
>> in the barracks of Obamism.
>>
>> While on one hand we can certainly clap our hands and praise the Lord
>> that the next president is not going to be JSMcCain.  Hallelujah, 
>> hallelujah.
>> Unfortunately Obama offers us no cause for joy or complacency out 
>> here in Mudville.
>>
>> The only thing that these Powers that Be understand is the proverbial 
>> and metaphorical
>> 2 x 4 applied with vigorous effort to their endurated crania. 
>>
>> IMHO, all this petitioning and letter writing is cool stuff and ok as 
>> an exercise in futility, but someday the faithful Obamites are
>> going to have to wake up and realize "Oh my God, I've been Gypped", 
>> and resort to other
>> peaceful options of civil disobedience.
>>
>> Some are suggesting that the American people should collectively step 
>> on the air hose of the war machine, which is the flow of
>> money which they take in our taxes.  It will take a little while for 
>> folks to get their backbones ready for that sort of desperate measure,
>> but its really one of the few things that will get their attention.
>>
>> "we cant do That".  (you may be right)
>>
>>
>>
>> Robert Naiman wrote:
>>> So, you're against promoting a vigorous national debate? I mean,
>>> suppose we don't think a threat of civil unrest is plausible. Then why
>>> bother do anything, right? Might as well go back to bed.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:40 PM, C. G. Estabrook <galliher at uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>>   
>>>> The problem is that the new administration is committed to this plan -- as
>>>> they have said for a while.  It seems that a national debate would have to
>>>> be quite vigorous -- involving a threat of civil unrest, as in 1968 -- to
>>>> blunt the incoming administration's enthusiasm.
>>>>
>>>> (The Pentagon Papers describe how the Pentagon told President Johnson in
>>>> 1968 that it could not send more troops to Vietnam and still have enough to
>>>> control the US domestic population.  But we've not gotten to that point
>>>> today.)
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.stwr.org/the-un-people-politics/noam-chomsky-on-1968-/-vive-la-revolution.html>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Robert Naiman wrote:
>>>>     
>>>>> USA Today reports that Gen. McKiernan - top U.S. commander in
>>>>> Afghanistan - "has asked the Pentagon for more than 20,000 soldiers,
>>>>> Marines and airmen" to augment U.S. forces. McKiernan says U.S. troop
>>>>> levels of 55,000 to 60,000 in Afghanistan will be needed for "at least
>>>>> three or four more years." He added: "If we put these additional
>>>>> forces in here, it's going to be for the next few years. It's not a
>>>>> temporary increase of combat strength."
>>>>>
>>>>> We should have a vigorous national debate before embarking on this
>>>>> course. Contrary to what one might think from a quick scan of the
>>>>> newspapers, there are knowledgeable voices questioning whether
>>>>> increasing the deployment of U.S. troops to Afghanistan is in our
>>>>> interest, or is in the interest of the Afghan people.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bestselling author and former longtime New York Times foreign
>>>>> correspondent Stephen Kinzer argues the opposite in this five minute
>>>>> video...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-naiman/kinzer-surge-diplomacy-no_b_149364.html
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/12/8/15317/1502
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/38127
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Robert Naiman
>>>>> Just Foreign Policy
>>>>> www.justforeignpolicy.org
>>>>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Ambassador Pickering on Iran Talks and Multinational Enrichment
>>>>> http://youtube.com/watch?v=kGZFrFxVg8A
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>       
>>>
>>>   
>>
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