[Peace-discuss] Pro-war propaganda

Thu Dec 25 22:40:12 CST 2008

Good to hear, but he expresses support for the troops now there,  
although he thinks their role should change. Whistling in the dark?

I'm all for having him here again to understand….

--mkb

On Dec 25, 2008, at 12:42 PM, Robert Naiman wrote:

> I'm all for bringing him here and asking him whatever you want. But
> there is no need for suspense on whether he supports sending more
> troops: he is opposed, and wants more diplomacy instead:
>
> Stephen Kinzer: Surge Afghanistan Diplomacy, Not Troops
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e24UHABpWE8
>
> -- 
> Robert Naiman
> Just Foreign Policy
> www.justforeignpolicy.org
> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 7:23 PM, Morton K. Brussel  
> <brussel at illinois.edu> wrote:
>> Were he to come and speak, we could simply raise these issues from  
>> the
>> audience. And we should, and ask him also if he approves of  
>> Obama's plan to
>> increase the number of U.S. forces there. And more…
>>
>> --mkb
>>
>> On Dec 17, 2008, at 6:26 PM, Karen Medina wrote:
>>
>>> So when Kinzer comes, shall we ask him for a debate? and with whom?
>>> Or part of a panel?
>>> -karen medina
>>>
>>> ---- Original message ----
>>>>
>>>> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 00:00:45 -0600
>>>> From: "Morton K. Brussel" <brussel at illinois.edu>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Pro-war propaganda
>>>> To: "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at uiuc.edu>
>>>> Cc: Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
>>>>
>>>> Kinzer is certainly "disappointing" in this interview.
>>>>
>>>> He takes the point of view that what we're doing in Afghanistan is
>>>> basically altruistic, only our tactics are wrong. He seems to  
>>>> assume
>>>> that we can have troops there benignly, training a new Afghan army
>>>> without harming anyone or eliciting antagonism.
>>>>
>>>> Has he not learned the lessons of Vietnam, that we were there
>>>> initially to train a Vietnamese army to fight the Communists  
>>>> better?
>>>> --But somehow we got entangled in their training, gunfights in the
>>>> field. Imagine, the Vietcong were shooting at us! Of course, we had
>>>> to protect ourselves, ---and bring in more troops for our training
>>>> didn't work well.
>>>>
>>>> He does not consider that we may be, and wish to stay, in  
>>>> Afghanistan
>>>> for geopolitical and natural resource reasons, i.e. for our broadly
>>>> defined national security. His picture of our troops as basically
>>>> good, if unsophisticated, guys can justify our presence there. Of
>>>> course, this is nonsense. Is he really so naive about our hegemonic
>>>> impulses?
>>>>
>>>> It might be good to have him visit here again to confront his
>>>> arguments. Yes, Kinzer has seemingly learned that military force  
>>>> does
>>>> not make friends with people, but his statement that we could  
>>>> remain
>>>> in Afghanistan as benign onlookers shakes ones confidence in his
>>>> powers of analysis and observation---even giving him the benefit of
>>>> doubt that he is sincere.
>>>>
>>>> As to the chaos that would ensue if we left, it is pointed out
>>>> endlessly that we only create chaos by our foreign arms laden  
>>>> presence.
>>>> --mkb
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 16, 2008, at 10:32 PM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The following seems to me to be a good example of the most
>>>>> dangerous sort of pro-war propaganda we face.  It's not a neocon
>>>>> rant but a liberal expression of critical support for the war in
>>>>> Afghanistan.  Instead of explaining why the US should get out, it
>>>>> suggests how the US can more comfortably stay in -- i.e., how the
>>>>> US can "maintain our troop strength" in a country we invaded
>>>>> (primarily, it is suggested, by being more culturally sensitive --
>>>>> e.g., don't blow away wedding parties -- but put in terms of a
>>>>> condescending pop anthropology).
>>>>>
>>>>> There's no consideration of why the US is spending so much money
>>>>> and lives in Afghanistan -- it's taken for granted that we should,
>>>>> apparently as part of the "war on terrorism."  It elides the
>>>>> various excuses offered by the Bush administration for the attack
>>>>> on Afghanistan (get ObL, revenge for 9/11, overthrow the Taliban)
>>>>> and comes close to feeding the mythology that the Taliban attacked
>>>>> the US on 9/11/01.  And it ignores the US refusal to negotiate  
>>>>> with
>>>>> the Taliban in 2001 over a trial for ObL.
>>>>>
>>>>> "If we leave immediately, I fear that violence would devastate  
>>>>> that
>>>>> country." But the US has brought the violence that is now
>>>>> devastating the country. Killing Pushtun tribesmen to "stop
>>>>> terrorism" is as much a lie as killing Vietnamese peasants to  
>>>>> "stop
>>>>> communism." (And there were plenty of liberals who offered
>>>>> "critical support" for that.)
>>>>>
>>>>>        Afghanistan: A Way Forward
>>>>>        Tuesday 16 December 2008
>>>>>        by: Maya Schenwar, t r u t h o u t
>>>>>        An interview with Stephen Kinzer.
>>>>>
>>>>>    Last week, with President-elect Obama's blessing, Defense
>>>>> Secretary Robert Gates announced the beginning of a troop "surge"
>>>>> in Afghanistan...
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.truthout.org/121608R>
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