[Peace-discuss] Howard Zinn speaks

Fri Feb 15 17:00:57 CST 2008

Good one. Laurie... and I also like the way you called Carl "Christ"  ;-]

   --Jenifer

"Laurie at advancenet.net" <laurie at advancenet.net> wrote:
  > "On those remote pages it is written that animals are divided into (a)
those that belong to the
> Emperor, (b) embalmed ones, (c) those that are trained, (d) suckling pigs,
(e)
> mermaids, (f) fabulous ones, (g) stray dogs, (h) those that are included
in this
> classification, (i) those that tremble as if they were mad, (j)
innumerable
> ones, (k) those drawn with a very fine camel's hair brush, (l) others, (m)
those
> that have just broken a flower vase, (n) those that resemble flies from a
distance." 

Christ, isn't that a description of our government's enemies list, which
they have stamped as classified? By releasing this, you will have to answer
to Homeland Security - especially since you have listed some of their top
personnel as enemy animals. :-)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net [mailto:peace-discuss-
> bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C. G. Estabrook
> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 10:57 PM
> To: Jenifer Cartwright
> Cc: Peace Discuss; Morton K. Brussel
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Howard Zinn speaks
> 
> The multiple uses you cite serve to cover the fundamental social
> meaning of
> class -- roughly those who have the same role in the process of
> producing the
> necessities of life. In a (more or less) capitalist order, these tend
> to two: a
> very small group of 'owners' (not a natural relationship but a peculiar
> notion
> of dominion over what's needed to produce food and shelter) and the
> large
> majority, who have to sell what makes them human -- their work of head
> and hands
> -- in order to eat regularly (even when they're privileged, like us).
> The
> interests of these two groups (classes, sensu stricto) are not just
> skew but
> contradictory -- in spite of all Mr. Obama can say.
> 
> Your description of the uses of class reminds of the famous passage
> from a J. L.
> Borges' story, in which Borges claims to know of "a certain Chinese
> encyclopedia
> entitled Celestial Emporium of Benevolent Knowledge. On those remote
> pages it is
> written that animals are divided into (a) those that belong to the
> Emperor, (b)
> embalmed ones, (c) those that are trained, (d) suckling pigs, (e)
> mermaids, (f)
> fabulous ones, (g) stray dogs, (h) those that are included in this
> classification, (i) those that tremble as if they were mad, (j)
> innumerable
> ones, (k) those drawn with a very fine camel's hair brush, (l) others,
> (m) those
> that have just broken a flower vase, (n) those that resemble flies from
> a
> distance." --CGE
> 
> 
> Jenifer Cartwright wrote:
> > I couldn't get the full text, and I'm usually a big Zinn fan... but I
> > certainly disagree w/ the statement below, because we talk/hear/read
> > about class in the US all the time: middle class; vanishing middle
> > class; blue collar workers; working class; working class
> > background; underclass; permanent underclass; upper class; educated
> > clase; socio- economic status (SES); extreme poverty; climbers;
> social
> > climbers; RHIP; VIPs; head honchos; rank and file; Mr Charlie; the
> man;
> > movers and shakers; above your station; know your place, etc etc etc.
> > Polls give us class (and other) data ad infinitum -- which
> demographics
> > voted for Clinton, Obama, McCain, etc. Class humor is what moved
> Larry
> > the Cable Guy out of his trailer (so to speak) and into top 1% of
> > earners (I'm guessing), and class distinctions are used to sell
> products
> > from cars to cosmetics! Capitalism depends on a class system for its
> > existence, and nobody's trying to hide or deny it -- it's all right
> out
> > in the open for anyone to see.
> > --Jenifer
> >
> > */"C. G. Estabrook" /* wrote:
> >
> > Maybe so, but he makes here an absolutely crucial point, the very
> > point that
> > most self-described liberals (and even more the purveyors of
> > identity politics)
> > can't accept. Covering that over is what Clinton, Obama et al.
> are
> > all about. --CGE
> >
> >
> > Morton K. Brussel wrote:
> > > From ZNet:
> > http://www.zcommunications.org/znet/viewArticle/16498#Comments
> > >
> > > Zinn sounds a little less buoyant than usual.
> > >
> > > /.Our culture demands, in its very language, that we accept a
> > > commonality of interest binding all of us to one another. We
> mustn't
> > > talk about classes. Only Marxists do that, although James
> Madison,
> > > "Father of the Constitution," said, thirty years before Marx
> was
> > born
> > > that there was an inevitable conflict in society between those
> > who had
> > > property and those who did not./
> > >
> > > /Our present leaders are not so candid. They bombard us with
> phrases
> > > like "national interest," "national security," and "national
> > defense" as
> > > if all of these concepts applied equally to all of us, colored
> or
> > white,
> > > rich or poor, as if General Motors and Halliburton have the
> same
> > > interests as the rest of us, as if George Bush has the same
> > interest as
> > > the young man or woman he sends to war./
> > >
> > > /Surely, in the history of lies told to the population, this
> is the
> > > biggest lie. In the history of secrets, withheld from the
> American
> > > people, this is the biggest secret: that there are classes
> with
> > > different interests in this country. To ignore that-not to
> know
> > that the
> > > history of our country is a history of slaveowner against
> slave,
> > > landlord against tenant, corporation against worker, rich
> against
> > > poor-is to render us helpless before all the lesser lies told
> to
> > us by
> > > people in power. ./
> > > /
> > > /
> > > /--mkb/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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