[Peace-discuss] Peretz Article
Karen Medina
kmedina at uiuc.edu
Fri Feb 15 17:24:55 CST 2008
During the Holocaust, the Nazis rounded up Gypsies, homosexuals, and others as well as Jews.
-karen medina
---- Original message ----
>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:58:18 -0800 (PST)
>From: Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
>Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss] Peretz Article
>To: "Laurie at advancenet.net" <laurie at advancenet.net>, peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>
> Sorry, CPL is Champaign Public Library (as
> differentiated from UFL, the Urbana Free Library).
>
> The reviewers missed the point entirely OR didn't
> watch clear thru to the appalling end. You are
> correct that the collection organizers didn't make a
> point re who the extra paper clips represented...
> and the REASON that the paper clips were
> collected for Jews lost in the Holocaust (and not
> African- or Native Americans, both populations close
> at hand and decimated by racism) is that it turns
> out these folks -- public school teachers and
> parents in TN -- are part of the Christian Zionist
> movement, imho.
> --Jenifer
>
> "Laurie at advancenet.net" <laurie at advancenet.net>
> wrote:
>
> I checked the Google listed web site for the movie
> on it (I do not know what CPL stands for).
> Interestingly, the hype says they collected 11
> million paper clips to represent the 6 million
> Jews with the additional 5 million paper clips
> representing the Gypsies, homosexuals, and
> others. I wonder if they actually made it known
> to the kids and the white fundamentalist
> Christians that some of the 11 million paper clips
> represented gay persons. I sort of doubt it
> because it probably would have caused a protest by
> those religious Bible belt citizens.
>
> Interesting that they did not collect paper clips
> to represent all the Native Americans that died in
> the Trail of Tears march forced on them in the US
> by the US government or to honor all the blacks
> that were lynched right here in the US. Evidently
> like the Palestinians, Arabs in general, and the
> Iraq civilians , the blacks and Native Americans
> were not real people or worthy of being honored or
> remembered; nor was the actions by their
> government and some of their ancestors which were
> just like the Nazis (like lynching and KKK cross
> burning) noted. But civics socialization of
> children is what the public schools are set up to
> accomplish and what they do well. Drum political
> and other myths into the students until they
> internalize them as truths and as valued norms so
> that they will conform to the “Ugly American”
> life style, the sanitized movie version of the
> Wild West filled with all kinds of John Wayne
> stereotypes, and the Puritan behaviors that were
> preached but not really followed in practice.
>
> As for me, I do not get nightmares when I sleep;
> it is only when I am awake and living in a world
> dominated by Amerika and Amerikans that I get
> nightmares.
>
> From: Jenifer Cartwright
> [mailto:jencart13 at yahoo.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 10:38 PM
> To: LAURIE SOLOMON; 'David Green';
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss] Peretz Article
>
> Related to the Christian Zionist movement...
>
> Check out Paper Clips from the CPL -- it's a
> documentary about a public school in TN collecting
> paper clips to represent the 6 million Jews killed
> during the holocaust. It starts out benignly
> enuff, and then about halfway thru you realize
> these folks are a bunch of white fundamentalist
> Christians with their own agenda... one of the
> teachers sez the purpose of this is to teach the
> kids about discrimination... (this is the SOUTH
> fer crissakes, and there are even a couple of
> black kids in the frame!!) It ends w/ the school
> taking a field trip to NYC to ground zero, and the
> teacher telling the kids that the people who did
> this were just like the Nazis... wich is why we
> have to support President Bush so this doesn't
> happen here in the US.
>
> If you tho't Jesus Camp was scary, Paper Clips
> will give you nightmares.
> --Jenifer
>
> LAURIE SOLOMON <LAURIE at ADVANCENET.NET> wrote:
>
> David,
>
> Thank you for the information about the
> Christian Zionist movement; I did not know
> anything about their existence. Obviously from
> my response, I did not take Peretz’s (or is it
> Putz’s) comments very seriously and find it
> difficult to regard him seriously. That is not
> to say that I do not regard him and his comments
> as dangerous.
>
> But even with tongue in cheek and foot up
> one’s a**, I still am left to wonder why he
> would refer to a Christian Zionist movement as
> petitioners for a Jewish State as opposed to
> petitioning for a Christian State in the name of
> Jesus - sort of a Protestant Vatican – and why
> he would say: "That's from before there were any
> Jews in the U.S. There were maybe a dozen Jews
> in every city." This is factually incorrect; he
> even admits and contradicts his first statement
> by noting that there were maybe a dozen in every
> city at the time he is referring to. In fact
> there were probably even more Jews than that,
> although they may not have been Zionists since
> Jewish Zionists, according to you, came later.
> Thus, his deliberate loose use of language
> obscures the fact that he is not referring to
> Jews per se but to Jewish Zionists in his
> statement (and not only Jewish Zionists as
> individuals but as an established formally
> organized movement.
>
> However, I guess that this is neither here nor
> there in terms of his argument. But I would
> question his argument that > People like Walt
> and Mearsheimer are "facing a stone wall, which
> is the fact that the American people like Israel
> and identify with it" < ; this has not always
> been the case. It is a contemporary love affair
> of convenience. Christian America before and
> after WWII were as anti-Semitic as they were
> racist for the most part and really did not give
> a damn about Israel or a Jewish homeland until
> post 1948. Ironically, it was the USSR that
> first recognized Israel as an independent
> sovereign country – partially for ideological
> reasons and partially for Cold War reasons –
> although they did not recognize it as a Jewish
> homeland per se. This embarrassed the US
> government and forced it to recognize Israel;
> once it did, the US set forth to buy its loyalty
> and turn Israel against the USSR. This support
> was given begrudgingly by the US government and
> even more so by its Christian citizens. Citizen
> support would only come much later after much
> manipulation by the Israeli lobby and US govt.
> officials. The fundamentalist Christians in the
> US who until recently hated Jews and were as
> prejudiced against them as they were toward
> blacks (just Jews were not as easy to identify
> as blacks) only recently found it expedient to
> love and support them, to attempt to convert
> rather than kill them, and to treat them as
> allies now that many of the Jews started t o
> identify with conservative values and goals
> versus the older liberal orientation. I suspect
> that the pendulum will swing in the other
> direction in the future and these Christian
> supporters will again become anti-Semitic and
> non-sup[porters of Israel.
>
> From: peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net
> [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net]
> On Behalf Of David Green
> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 11:36 AM
> To: Peace Discuss
> Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss] Peretz Article
>
> Not to take this too seriously, but Peretz is
> referring to a Christian Zionist movement from
> earlier in the 19th century that predated both
> the Jewish Zionist movement (1895) and the mass
> immigration of Jews from Eastern Europe.
>
> LAURIE SOLOMON <LAURIE at ADVANCENET.NET> wrote:
>
> How is this possible? How can you get petitions
> from Americans before there were any Jews in the
> U.S. unless we are talking about petitions from
> non-Jewish Americans, in which case why would
> they want a JEWISH homeland? Since there have
> been Jews in the U.S. since the beginning of the
> U.S., they must be talking about the early
> settlers before the U.S. Revolution and even
> before the establishment of the early colonies.
> Given that this makes little sense, I can only
> conclude that they are referring to the American
> aboriginals as having petitioned for the
> establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine
>
> I further have a hard time understanding why the
> American aboriginals would want a Jewish
> homeland in Palestine and why they would be
> petitioning the white man in the U.S. (or Europe
> for that matter) for it; or how the white men of
> that period would know how to read a written
> petition from an American aboriginal. By the
> way, do we know which aboriginal group it was.
>
> From: peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net
> [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net]
> On Behalf Of David Green
> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:34 AM
> To: Peace Discuss
> Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peretz Article
>
> So if this is true, why did they want a Jewish
> homeland in Palestine? Was it because they loved
> Jews so much, or just wanted them to go
> somewhere else? Or was it because they dealt
> with their discomfort with Jews by projecting a
> biblical fantasy on to them? In any event, the
> vast majority of Jews either in Europe or
> America did not want a Jewish homeland in
> Palestine. Does that make any difference to
> Peretz? And why do Americans identify with
> Israel (if they do)? Only because propaganda
> since 1967 has exploited the Holocaust vis a vis
> Arabs and Muslims, and Israel has been
> identified with militarism.
>
> DG
>
> "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at uiuc.edu> wrote
>
> People like Walt and Mearsheimer are "facing a
> stone wall, which is the
> fact that the American people like Israel and
> identify with it," he
> says. That support has little to do with the
> Israel lobby. "We have
> petitions upon petitions from centuries ago by
> Americans who wanted a
> Jewish homeland in Palestine," he says. "That's
> from before there were
> any Jews in the U.S. There were maybe a dozen
> Jews in every city."
>
>
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