[Peace-discuss] Peretz Article -- Paper Clips

Jenifer Cartwright jencart13 at yahoo.com
Sat Feb 16 01:44:59 CST 2008 

The collectors of the paper clips never intended to collect more than 6 million -- they only cared about getting enuff clips to represent the Jews murdered by the Nazis. But when they put out the call to schools, churches, etc nation-wide (maybe Europe too) the paper clips came pouring in, and in, and in... (Can you imagine what it takes to deal w/ 6 million paper clips??? It's a wonder the teachers, students, and parents had time for anything else that year.)
   
  My goodness, quite a lot of interest generated w/ this. I'd be glad to get the DVD if anyone wants to come over and watch it.
   --Jenifer  

LAURIE SOLOMON <LAURIE at ADVANCENET.NET> wrote:
        v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}  o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}  w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}  .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}                But Jenifer that does not explain why they collected 11 million paper clips when only 6 million Jews were terminated.  Surely, they did not think that there were 11 million Jews killed (but given who we are talking about, they may have thought that there were 11 million Jews killed).  You know the old expression, which I just made up, “when you are in a holocaust, everyone is Jewish!”  Every white Christian fundamentalist southerner in the US knows that Jews and Communists and gays are all the same thing; and as Christ killers,  the Jews and peudeo-Jews  ( straight and gay, Communist or not, and Jewish or not)  are no better than those thieving opportunistic  money grubbing Gypsies; thus they were all Jews in one form or another.
   
  Of course, you all know that in the words of that great American philosopher – Red Foxx, “I am only being serious.”
   
        From: peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Jenifer Cartwright
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 5:57 PM
To: kmedina at uiuc.edu; peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss] Peretz Article


   
    Yes, and again, the review mentions those as well... but as I said, the collectors in Paper Clip were Christian Zionists (imho) and were focusing only on the Jews (I don't remember their mentioning any other groups even in passing). 

     --Jenifer  

Karen Medina <kmedina at uiuc.edu> wrote:

    During the Holocaust, the Nazis rounded up Gypsies, homosexuals, and others as well as Jews.

-karen medina

---- Original message ----
>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:58:18 -0800 (PST)
>From: Jenifer Cartwright 
>Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss] Peretz Article 
>To: "Laurie at advancenet.net" , peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>
> Sorry, CPL is Champaign Public Library (as
> differentiated from UFL, the Urbana Free Library).
> 
> The reviewers missed the point entirely OR didn't
> watch clear thru to the appalling end. You are
> correct that the collection organizers didn't make a
> point re who the extra paper clips represented...
> and the REASON that the paper clips were
> collected for Jews lost in the Holocaust (and not
> African- or Native Americans, both populations close
> at hand and decimated by racism) is that it turns
> out these folks -- public school teachers and
> parents in TN -- are part of the Christian Zionist
> movement, imho.
> --Jenifer 
>
> "Laurie at advancenet.net" 
> wrote:
>
> I checked the Google listed web site for the movie
> on it (I do not know what CPL stands for). 
> Interestingly, the hype says they collected 11
> million paper clips to represent the 6 million
> Jews with the additional 5 million paper clips
> representing the Gypsies, homosexuals, and
> others. I wonder if they actually made it known
> to the kids and the white fundamentalist
> Christians that some of the 11 million paper clips
> represented gay persons. I sort of doubt it
> because it probably would have caused a protest by
> those religious Bible belt citizens.
> 
> Interesting that they did not collect paper clips
> to represent all the Native Americans that died in
> the Trail of Tears march forced on them in the US
> by the US government or to honor all the blacks
> that were lynched right here in the US. Evidently
> like the Palestinians, Arabs in general, and the
> Iraq civilians , the blacks and Native Americans
> were not real people or worthy of being honored or
> remembered; nor was the actions by their
> government and some of their ancestors which were
> just like the Nazis (like lynching and KKK cross
> burning) noted. But civics socialization of
> children is what the public schools are set up to
> accomplish and what they do well. Drum political
> and other myths into the students until they
> internalize them as truths and as valued norms so
> that they will conform to the “Ugly American”
> life style, the sanitized movie version of the
> Wild West filled with all kinds of John Wayne
> stereotypes, and the Puritan behaviors that were
> preached but not really followed in practice.
> 
> As for me, I do not get nightmares when I sleep;
> it is only when I am awake and living in a world
> dominated by Amerika and Amerikans that I get
> nightmares.
> 
> From: Jenifer Cartwright
> [mailto:jencart13 at yahoo.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 10:38 PM
> To: LAURIE SOLOMON; 'David Green';
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss] Peretz Article
> 
> Related to the Christian Zionist movement...
> 
> Check out Paper Clips from the CPL -- it's a
> documentary about a public school in TN collecting
> paper clips to represent the 6 million Jews killed
> during the holocaust. It starts out benignly
> enuff, and then about halfway thru you realize
> these folks are a bunch of white fundamentalist
> Christians with their own agenda... one of the
> teachers sez the purpose of this is to teach the
> kids about discrimination... (this is the SOUTH
> fer crissakes, and there are even a couple of
> black kids in the frame!!) It ends w/ the school
> taking a field trip to NYC to ground zero, and the
> teacher telling the kids that the people who did
> this were just like the Nazis... wich is why we
> have to support President Bush so this doesn't
> happen here in the US.
> 
> If you tho't Jesus Camp was scary, Paper Clips
> will give you nightmares. 
> --Jenifer
>
> LAURIE SOLOMON wrote:
>
> David,
> 
> Thank you for the information about the
> Christian Zionist movement; I did not know
> anything about their existence. Obviously from
> my response, I did not take Peretz’s (or is it
> Putz’s) comments very seriously and find it
> difficult to regard him seriously. That is not
> to say that I do not regard him and his comments
> as dangerous.
> 
> But even with tongue in cheek and foot up
> one’s a**, I still am left to wonder why he
> would refer to a Christian Zionist movement as
> petitioners for a Jewish State as opposed to
> petitioning for a Christian State in the name of
> Jesus - sort of a Protestant Vatican – and why
> he would say: "That's from before there were any
> Jews in the U.S. There were maybe a dozen Jews
> in every city." This is factually incorrect; he
> even admits and contradicts his first statement
> by noting that there were maybe a dozen in every
> city at the time he is referring to. In fact
> there were probably even more Jews than that,
> although they may not have been Zionists since
> Jewish Zionists, according to you, came later. 
> Thus, his deliberate loose use of language
> obscures the fact that he is not referring to
> Jews per se but to Jewish Zionists in his
> statement (and not only Jewish Zionists as
> individuals but as an established formally
> organized movement.
> 
> However, I guess that this is neither here nor
> there in terms of his argument. But I would
> question his argument that > People like Walt
> and Mearsheimer are "facing a stone wall, which
> is the fact that the American people like Israel
> and identify with it" < ; this has not always
> been the case. It is a contemporary love affair
> of convenience. Christian America before and
> after WWII were as anti-Semitic as they were
> racist for the most part and really did not give
> a damn about Israel or a Jewish homeland until
> post 1948. Ironically, it was the USSR that
> first recognized Israel as an independent
> sovereign country – partially for ideological
> reasons and partially for Cold War reasons –
> although they did not recognize it as a Jewish
> homeland per se. This embarrassed the US
> government and forced it to recognize Israel;
> once it did, the US set forth to buy its loyalty
> and turn Israel against the USSR. This support
> was given begrudgingly by the US government and
> even more so by its Christian citizens. Citizen
> support would only come much later after much
> manipulation by the Israeli lobby and US govt.
> officials. The fundamentalist Christians in the
> US who until recently hated Jews and were as
> prejudiced against them as they were toward
> blacks (just Jews were not as easy to identify
> as blacks) only recently found it expedient to
> love and support them, to attempt to convert
> rather than kill them, and to treat them as
> allies now that many of the Jews started t o
> identify with conservative values and goals
> versus the older liberal orientation. I suspect
> that the pendulum will swing in the other
> direction in the future and these Christian
> supporters will again become anti-Semitic and
> non-sup[porters of Israel.
> 
> From: peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net
> [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net]
> On Behalf Of David Green
> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 11:36 AM
> To: Peace Discuss
> Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss] Peretz Article
> 
> Not to take this too seriously, but Peretz is
> referring to a Christian Zionist movement from
> earlier in the 19th century that predated both
> the Jewish Zionist movement (1895) and the mass
> immigration of Jews from Eastern Europe.
>
> LAURIE SOLOMON wrote:
> 
> How is this possible? How can you get petitions
> from Americans before there were any Jews in the
> U.S. unless we are talking about petitions from
> non-Jewish Americans, in which case why would
> they want a JEWISH homeland? Since there have
> been Jews in the U.S. since the beginning of the
> U.S., they must be talking about the early
> settlers before the U.S. Revolution and even
> before the establishment of the early colonies. 
> Given that this makes little sense, I can only
> conclude that they are referring to the American
> aboriginals as having petitioned for the
> establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine
> 
> I further have a hard time understanding why the
> American aboriginals would want a Jewish
> homeland in Palestine and why they would be
> petitioning the white man in the U.S. (or Europe
> for that matter) for it; or how the white men of
> that period would know how to read a written
> petition from an American aboriginal. By the
> way, do we know which aboriginal group it was.
> 
> From: peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net
> [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net]
> On Behalf Of David Green
> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:34 AM
> To: Peace Discuss
> Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peretz Article
> 
> So if this is true, why did they want a Jewish
> homeland in Palestine? Was it because they loved
> Jews so much, or just wanted them to go
> somewhere else? Or was it because they dealt
> with their discomfort with Jews by projecting a
> biblical fantasy on to them? In any event, the
> vast majority of Jews either in Europe or
> America did not want a Jewish homeland in
> Palestine. Does that make any difference to
> Peretz? And why do Americans identify with
> Israel (if they do)? Only because propaganda
> since 1967 has exploited the Holocaust vis a vis
> Arabs and Muslims, and Israel has been
> identified with militarism.
> 
> DG
>
> "C. G. Estabrook" wrote
>
> People like Walt and Mearsheimer are "facing a
> stone wall, which is the
> fact that the American people like Israel and
> identify with it," he
> says. That support has little to do with the
> Israel lobby. "We have
> petitions upon petitions from centuries ago by
> Americans who wanted a
> Jewish homeland in Palestine," he says. "That's
> from before there were
> any Jews in the U.S. There were maybe a dozen
> Jews in every city."
> 
>
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