[Peace-discuss] Re: [Announce] Fw: [Discuss] Fw: Fw: CLNews: Presidential Candidates and Single Payer

Sat Feb 23 11:37:57 CST 2008

*This is because I think it's unrealistic to expect anyone running for a
national office to be able to survive without endorsements
*
After I made the comment about cutting both Clinton and Obama slack I did
share my reasons behind the statement. Running a presidential campaign is
hideously expensive and both Clinton and Obama will need some level of
corporate endorsements in order to run for office.

Now Clinton's voting record as a senator is one that she needs to be held
accountable for. I fully agree with your analysis on how Clinton has
conducted herself.
*
**The only thing that amazes me is how she has any support at all amongst
the average voter*.

People will often cast votes based on personalities. Bill Clinton did not
obtain the nickname "Slick Willie" by chance. The Clintons are very
charismatic people and that does have an impact on voter decision. Obama
himself has that same gift of personality and charm.

George W. Bush has been able to take a certain 'folksy' approach in how he
established himself amongst his supporters. When Al Gore was vice president
he earned the reputation for being 'stiff' and this perceived lack of
personality may have been part of what hurt him when he ran for office.
This stiffness and the shenanigans played out in Florida managed to kill his
presidential bid.

This is not something that is unique to Americans. Around the world and in
history there are examples of how politicians have been able to use charm to
gain office. When JFK ran for the presidency my father told me of someone
who voted for him because Kennedy seemed to be such a nice young man.  Adolf
Hitler is also another example of how charisma has managed to garner votes.
Some accounts of Hitler have focused on how he was able to hold a magnetic
presence and this chemistry helped him win the hearts of Germans.

Ideally voters would look strictly at a candidates record, and be able to
engage in a critical approach to making decisions. However, it's a much more
complex process that impacts people both intellectually and emotionally.

Peace, Marti

On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 10:18 AM, unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net> wrote:

>  " Cutting Clinton slack " ?
>
> With Obama at least you have a somewhat  unknown entity, in that based on
> his past track record in the Illinois Senate, he did occasionally do the
> right thing, even if at times when he got timid and wormy, he was strongly
> " persuaded " by various citizen's groups.
> If elected president he MIGHT do the right thing.
>
> Clinton on the other hand ( both her and her husband ) have made a career
> out of selling people out. Its a very long list. Under Bill you had - NAFTA,
> China Trade Bill, WTO bill, Welfare " reform " bill, restrictions on habeous
> corpus rights, and the list goes on.
> Hillary was not just a passive " house wife " in the Clinton presidency,
> she was an active political player behind the scenes and at times in public.
> And since she became a U.S. Senator, she is the poster child as a "
> corporate democrat ".
> She voted for the invasion of Iraq and Afganistan, the so called Patriot
> Act, Military Commisions act. She has supported every corporate trade treaty
> that has been passed in the congress, not to mention every funding requst
> made by Bush to continue the war(s).
>
> The only thing that amazes me is how she has any support at all amongst
> the average voter.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Marti Wilkinson <martiwilki at gmail.com>
> *To:* unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net>
> *Cc:* UC Progressives <ucprogressives at lists.chambana.net> ; C-U Citzens
> for Peace and Justice <discuss at lists.communitycourtwatch.org> ; Court
> Watch <announce at communitycourtwatch.org> ; Peace Discuss<peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
> *Sent:* Friday, February 22, 2008 9:01 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Announce] Fw: [Discuss] Fw: Fw: CLNews: Presidential
> Candidates and Single Payer
>
> In my previous message I neglected to mention that I'm also very grateful
> to be alive and to be able to see my child grow up. In my case I was
> extremely lucky to have been diagnosed in an early, and treatable, stage of
> the disease. Now for individuals who don't have insurance the mortality
> rates are higher due to delayed diagnosis.
>
> I'm going to cut Clinton and Obama some slack. This is because I think
> it's unrealistic to expect anyone running for a national office to be able
> to survive without endorsements and I think you touched on that some. It may
> be that the best way to make significant changes is at the grassroots level.
> As long as we allow a system where lobbyists are able to influence decisions
> on both domestic and foreign policy - the buying and selling of
> congressional votes will continue. This is not something that can simply
> start with one candidate - it has to be across the nation.
>
> Peace, Marti
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 12:42 AM, unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net> wrote:
>
> >  Absolutely !
> >
> > That's what I am talking about !
> >
> > All of what you said is precisely the point !
> >
> > Totaly unnecessary, and ONLY in the good olde USA !
> >
> > And again, ANY POLITICIAN who accepts this system, is a sell-out to the
> > citizens of this country.
> > Bought and paid for by the corporate special interests.
> >
> >
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* Marti Wilkinson <martiwilki at gmail.com>
> > *To:* unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net>
> > *Cc:* C-U Citzens for Peace and Justice<discuss at lists.communitycourtwatch.org>; Peace
> > Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
> > *Sent:* Friday, February 22, 2008 8:11 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Announce] Fw: [Discuss] Fw: Fw: CLNews: Presidential
> > Candidates and Single Payer
> >
> > It's important to know that quality medical care in the United States
> > favors people who can best afford it. I've had really good medical insurance
> > and really crappy medical insurance and I can truthfully state that the
> > better care comes with better insurance.  Yet, even with what can be
> > considered to be GOOD insurance a medical crisis can have a negative impact
> > on ones finances. As a single parent, and cancer survivor, I can certainly
> > attest to that. Even though I am blessed to be cancer free I will very
> > likely spend the next several years recovering from the damage to both my
> > credit and my financial well being.  That being said I still have a roof
> > over my head, food in the house, and clothes on my back. I'm hoping that my
> > pursuit of a graduate degree will help me financially in the long run.
> >
> > For me it's a much bigger picture. We need good medical care. We also
> > need to pay citizens a living wage and have access to affordable housing.
> > Yet, there seems to be this attitude that somehow if a person gets sick or
> > is poor then it's somehow a human failing. In order for anyone to be able to
> > pull themselves up by the proverbial bootstraps...one needs a pair of boots.
> >
> >
> > Peace, Marti
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 11:05 PM, unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "unionyes" <unionyes at ameritech.net>
> > > To: "Robert Stanton" <robert.l.stanton at gmail.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 8:00 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Fw: [Announce] Fw: CLNews: Presidential
> > > Candidates
> > > and Single Payer
> > >
> > >
> > > >I think were dealing in semantics here.
> > > >
> > > > Do you think people should be allowed to die because they are not
> > > able to
> > > > afford health care ?
> > > >
> > > > Or that people should lose everthing that they have worked for all
> > > of
> > > > their lives ( in particular their homes ) because of a serious
> > > illness or
> > > > long-term care situiation ?
> > > >
> > > > That is what I am talking about.
> > > >
> > > > This does NOT happen in any industrialized ( ie. rich, developed )
> > > > economy/ country in the world EXCEPT the United States.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Robert Stanton" <robert.l.stanton at gmail.com>
> > > > To: "unionyes" <unionyes at ameritech.net>
> > > > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 5:10 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Fw: [Announce] Fw: CLNews: Presidential
> > > Candidates
> > > > and Single Payer
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Hello,
> > > >>
> > > >> I don't disagree with you regarding the need for fully-funded,
> > > without
> > > >> guilt, and destigmatized universal health care.  I think that must
> > > be
> > > >> said before I mention anything else.
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm somewhat confused as to why health care is a "basic human
> > > right."
> > > >> It's not as though people are being oppressed or held back from a
> > > >> naturally occurring or flowing source of health care, at least not
> > > >> directly.
> > > >>
> > > >> If we look to our origins, what could be termed "health care" in
> > > early
> > > >> or "primitive" human societies was indeed universally available
> > > >> (however, our ancestors had no need to think in terms of property
> > > or
> > > >> rights), however it was not highly industrialized.  Care was
> > > simple,
> > > >> homeopathic, and often not particularly effective.  There are many
> > > >> examples of broken bones that healed poorly and infections/diseases
> > > >> where root and leaf tinctures were not useful.  If a member of a
> > > tribe
> > > >> was banished, which was not uncommon, care was typically no longer
> > > >> available to that individual.  That being said, tribal outsiders
> > > could
> > > >> expect to be given care freely, if it was needed.  From this, we
> > > see
> > > >> that notions of health care were very much in flux and not
> > > necessarily
> > > >> guaranteed.  As far as I know, notions of health care have only
> > > become
> > > >> more restricted with the advent of civilization.
> > > >>
> > > >> My current thinking is that people should receive the best
> > > healthcare
> > > >> (and a heavy focus on preventative health information)
> > > technological
> > > >> society can offer because their health and well-being are
> > > ultimately
> > > >> ruined by that same technological society.  I see it more as a
> > > matter
> > > >> of justice than rights.
> > > >>
> > > >> If you would tell me why you think health care is a human right, I
> > > >> would be pleased to listen.
> > > >>
> > > >> Sincerely,
> > > >> Robert
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On 2/22/08, unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >  >>> From: unionyes
> > > >>> To: Nora Whipple
> > > >>> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 2:01 PM
> > > >>> Subject: Re: [Announce] Fw: CLNews: Presidential Candidates and
> > > Single
> > > >>> Payer
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> No,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The best universal Health Care Plan would be what exists in every
> > > >>> industrialized country in the world EXCEPT the U.S., and that
> > > would be
> > > >>> to
> > > >>> expand the Medicare program for every man, woman and child. 100 %
> > > >>> healthcare
> > > >>> with no ;deductables, co-pays, non covered proceedures, etc. that
> > > is
> > > >>> used by
> > > >>> the present corporate for profit system we have now, to rip us
> > > off.
> > > >>> Not to mention the 8 - 10,000 people who die every year in this
> > > country
> > > >>> who
> > > >>> are denied health care, and the untold number who suffer
> > > needlessly,
> > > >>> just so
> > > >>> some rich bastards can get richer at our expense.
> > > >>> Health care should not be treated as a luxury, it is a basic human
> > > right
> > > >>> !
> > > >>> And ANY politician who supports the current barbaric, inefficient
> > > for
> > > >>> profit
> > > >>> health care system is a sell out to the corporate special
> > > interests,
> > > >>> pure
> > > >>> and simple !
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > >> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.9/1293 - Release Date:
> > > >> 2/22/2008 9:21 AM
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> > >  _______________________________________________
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> > > Announce at lists.communitycourtwatch.org
> > >
> > > http://lists.communitycourtwatch.org/listinfo.cgi/announce-communitycourtwatch.org
> > >
> >
> >  ------------------------------
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.9/1293 - Release Date:
> > 2/22/2008 9:21 AM
> >
> >
>  ------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.9/1294 - Release Date: 2/22/2008
> 6:39 PM
>
>
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