[Peace-discuss] Eight years too late...

Sun Jan 13 13:22:41 CST 2008

> this seems like a mental exercise rather than a real difference of opinion

It is all a mental exercise; life is a mental exercise.  Please explain what
you would see as constituting a "real difference of opinion" such that this
discussion would not fall within that definition.  You seem to be prepared
to make a lot of assumptions that others are unwilling to make and actually
may even assume the opposite.  Therein lies the basis for a real difference
of opinion, in my opinion.  Even if we agreed with you with respect to your
list, that does not mean that we could not find an equal number of things
that are equivalent and equally egregious that were done by or under the
Clinton Administration or  a Gore Administration.  Who thought that we would
have any reason to believe that the Democrats elected to Congress would cave
in and  become Republican supporters after they gained control of Congress,
who would have believed that there was any reason to believe that Lieberman,
a known conservative Dem, would actually become a Fascist of similar ilk to
Bush/Chaney; and who had any not to believe that after 9/11 the Dems would
not have reacted in the same way given past WWII history under the Dems with
respect to their reactions to Pearl Harbor and their treatment of the
Japanese?

I think that you do not see this as discussion worth continuing because you
realize that you are not going to persuade your opponents to agree with you
and your beliefs.

From: peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net
[mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Jenifer
Cartwright
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 12:50 PM
To: C. G. Estabrook; Peace-discuss List
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Eight years too late...

I can't believe I'm spending time stating the obvious, and I won't continue
the discussion after this, because this seems like a mental exercise rather
than a real difference of opinion, and I don't really see the point of
spending more time on it. So... 

Granted, Madeleine Albrecht even looks like the hawk she is (yeah, low blow,
sorry), and we all know that Clinton has a lot to answer for, tho' isn't is
minor compared to what has happened under Bush???  But we were talking about
what the country and world would have been like under a Gore administration
-- assuming he didn't die and leave things in (shiver) Lieberman's hands --
in comparison w/ the atrocities committed by Bush et al the past seven
years. If you must continue to paint Gore and Clinton w/ the same brush, at
least admit that we didn't have the following under Clinton, and there's no
reason to believe we would have had under Gore -- I won't go into who
actually "killed" more Iraqis, 

Illegal, immoral, and unprovoked attack of Iraq

Repeated lies to US and world to justify above

Outing of Valerie Plame for revenge

4 million Iraqi refugees

Thousands and thousands of dead or wounded US troops, including those w/
PTSD

Billions funding wars -- huge debt

Abu Grahib, etc, etc and Guantanamo

Suspension of habeas corpus

Violation of UN Charter and Geneva Accords 

Extrordinary Rendition (yeah, CIA has kidnapped and murdered before)

Advanced Interrogation techniques, aka torture

Destruction of evidence re torture (tapes)

Domestic spying

No penalty for rampant corruption among Republicans w/ ties to White House

Appointment of two right-wing Supreme Court Justices (with 2-3 more or the
same if Republicans get in in 2008)

Banking crisis/home foreclosures, consumer debt

Economy generally in the crapper

Tax "relief" for top earners

Cuts in SCHIP and other funding for health and social services 

Editing of scientific papers so that govt can continue to turn a blind eye
to behavior of corps 

Vetoes and use of signing statements  when Congress actually does/tries to
do something 

That's just off the top of my head -- I'm sure others (and you, yrself) can
add to the list

Jenifer

"C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at uiuc.edu> wrote:

Lesley Stahl of CBS's 60 Minutes interviewing Clinton Secretary of State 
Albright in 1996: "We have heard that half a million children have 
died [from the US-administered sanctions on Iraq]. I mean, that's more 
children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?"

Albright: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price -- we think 
the price is worth it."

Successive UN administrators resigned, calling the US program "genocidal."

It was one of three motives put forward by Osama bin Laden for what he 
saw as the counter-attack of September 11, 2001. (The other two were 
the suppression of the Palestinians and US military investment of Saudi 
Arabia). --CGE

Jenifer Cartwright wrote:
> Isolated stats don't begin to tell the whole picture, Carl. You surely 
> cannot mean that Clinton was nearly as dreadful and destructive as Bush, 
> nor that Gore would have been???
> --Jenifer
> 
> */"C. G. Estabrook" /* wrote:
> 
> The Clinton administration is probably still responsible for more
> dead Iraqis than the Bush administration -- by sanctions and air
> attacks. And they showed themselves perfectly prepared to launch an
> illegal war to ensure the neoliberal order in the "greater Middle
> East" -- the attack on Serbia that Gore (and Hillary) supported. --CGE
> 
> ---- Original message ----
> >Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:54:48 -0800 (PST)
> >From: Jenifer Cartwright
> >Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Eight years too late...
> >To: "C. G. Estabrook"
> >Cc: Peace-discuss List
> >
> > Y're saying Iraq/restructuring the middle-east was
> > in Gore's crosshairs from the git go?? If so, pls
> > include a link to enlighten me.
> > --Jenifer
> >
> > "C. G. Estabrook" wrote:
> >
> > Oh, come on. Anyone who thinks everything would
> > have been OK if only a
> > "good guy" had become president in 2000 has
> > forgotten the (first and one
> > hopes only) Clinton administration and should read
> > Alexander Cockburn
> > and Jeffrey St. Clair's book, Al Gore: A User's
> > Manual (Verso, 2000).
> > The neocons' original focus was the Clinton
> > administration, and Gore was
> > a hawk within it. --CGE
> >
> > Jenifer Cartwright wrote:
> > > Isn't it too bad it took Ralph Nader eight years
> > to notice the
> > > significant difference between "the lesser of
> > two evils" and (finally)
> > > endorse a Democratic candidate (Edwards) when he
> > could have saved the
> > > world the EXTREME evil of the Bush regime by
> > endorsing Gore, or at least
> > > not running because there was "no difference"
> > between the two candidates???
> > > --Jenifer
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them
> > fast with Yahoo! Search.
> >________________
> >_______________________________________________
> >Peace-discuss mailing list
> >Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> >http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Peace-discuss mailing list
> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss

  _____  

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8H
DtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20>  it now.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/archive/peace-discuss/attachments/20080113/e8ef91f1/attachment.html