[Peace-discuss] Bush admin torture policy

[C. G. Estabrook]

John--

Your animus against your background would be better employed in attempting to 
understand US society and politics than in constructing fantasies about mine.

Your primary objection to my views is that I don't have a low enough estimate of 
the capacity and understanding of the people you say you come from.

Let's take an example: you write that they "believe with all of their shallow 
'Christian' hearts that Israel can do no wrong because the Jews are God's chosen 
people."

In fact it's the USG (Republican and Democrat) that has promoted (and corrupted) 
the government of Israel for forty years because it's useful for US geopolitical 
schemes in the Middle East.  But our tame media have claimed that US support for 
Israel is theological and have highlighted various Christian Zionists.  And 
you've believed those media.

What are the facts? There's a group at the U. of Maryland, the Program on 
International Policy Attitudes, that has done in-depth studies of people's 
attitudes towards Israel and Palestine, but they are rarely reported because the 
conclusions run counter to the fantasy promoted by the government and media.

The PIPA studies find that two-thirds of Americans believe that, far from Jews 
having an exclusive right to Palestine, there should be two equal states in 
historic Palestine (the solution the USG has been blocking since the 1970s).

A large majority of people in the US think we should cut off aid to either of 
the two parties, Israel or the Palestinians, if they refuse to enter into 
goodwill negotiations. The same large majority favors establishing a "nuclear 
weapons-free zone in the Middle East that would include both Islamic countries 
and Israel."

That's not what Rush and Fox tell you about American attitudes.  So whom are you 
going to believe?  --CGE


John W. wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:22 PM, C. G. Estabrook <galliher at uiuc.edu 
> <mailto:galliher at uiuc.edu>> wrote:
> 
>     John, you're the one who believes what the media tell you about what
>     Americans believe, instead of what the folks who've actually asked
>     them say. (Or maybe it comes from your deep immersion in the
>     American soul, of which the rest of us are so sadly deprived.) --CGE
> 
> 
> Your snide, sarcastic, effete response, Carl, is, of course, the truth, 
> at least as regards the contrast between you and me.  I don't presume to 
> speak for the rest of the readers of this list.
> 
> On the one hand we have me:  Spent the first 24 years of my life in a 
> working class neighborhood on the south side of Chicago.  Went to an 
> "integrated" Chicago public high school followed by - yes, the Ivy 
> League education that you're so fond of bringing up, which slightly 
> improved my vocabulary but precious little else.   Spent the next 20 
> years in a blue collar factory town in central Illinois, whose principal 
> industries were International Harvester, Caterpillar, and strip mining.  
> Worked as a Teamster, a farm laborer, a service station attendant, a 
> "landscape maintenance technician", an exterminator, and a firefighter.  
> There wasn't a white collar person to be found anywhere with the 
> exception of a handful of doctors, lawyers, and I.H. management.  Had I 
> not been married to a doctor and had two doctors as best friends, I 
> would have had absolutely no idea how that segment of the population 
> lived and thought.  But I did and I do....PLUS the factory workers and 
> the coal miners and the construction laborers and the police and 
> firefighters.
> 
> On the other hand we have you:  Grew up privileged, went to a prep 
> school followed by a lengthy stay at Harvard while accumulating three 
> degrees.  Spent his entire adult life as a professor.  Gets all of his 
> information from books.  And presumes to have his finger on the pulse of 
> the "average" American more than I do.
> 
> Well, I leave it to the readers of this list to judge which of us is 
> more in touch with reality.  It doesn't matter to me, ultimately.  I 
> just think it remarkable, your unshakeable conceit that AWARE in 
> general, and you in particular, are somehow in a position to "educate" 
> the vast hordes of "average" Americans who listen to Rush Limbaugh, 
> watch FOX news, and believe with all of their shallow "Christian" hearts 
> that Israel can do no wrong because the Jews are God's chosen people, 
> for once and all time.
> 
> The irony is that you and I agree on so many political issues, and you 
> do keep ME somewhat informed through your frequent bloviations on this 
> list.  But the "average" American?  You and s/he are on different 
> planets, and all the polls in the world aren't going to give you a 
> fucking clue.  You're that walking cliche, the Ivory Tower intellectual, 
> the educated idiot, the guy who learned more and more about less and 
> less until he ended up knowing everything about nothing.
> 
> Carry on, MacDuff.  Or whatever the fuck that Shakespeare fellow said.
> 
> 
>  
> 
>     John W. wrote:
> 
> 
>         Absolutely right, Laurie.  Even Scott Ritter, who is well known
>         to just about everyone on this list, is not by any means a
>         household name in the vast majority of American households.
>          Ditto Amy Goodman, Norman Finkelstein, et all.  This AWARE list
>         comprises a terribly rarefied group.
> 
>         There are also different educational contexts.  A parade float
>         is inappropriate for anything but the very broadest and
>         shallowest of educational constructs.
> 
>         Carl, you really, really, really need to get out among the
>         fellaheen more.
> 
>         John Wason
> 
>