[Peace-discuss] Bush admin torture policy
Jenifer Cartwright
jencart13 at yahoo.com
Fri Jun 20 17:46:10 CDT 2008
Yes, we're all capable of foolish -- and evil -- behavior, and (most) of the people I know best also are generally not fools, because most of my friends are like me re the issues I mentioned below (which is why they're my friends). But they/we are vastly different from
the general run of mankind, and if you'd spent time among the general run of mankind (humankind) you'd have every reason to know so.
--Jenifer
--- On Fri, 6/20/08, C. G. Estabrook <galliher at uiuc.edu> wrote:
From: C. G. Estabrook <galliher at uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Bush admin torture policy
To: jencart13 at yahoo.com
Date: Friday, June 20, 2008, 11:27 AM
We're all capable of foolish -- and evil -- behavior, but the people I know best are not generally fools, and I see no reason to think that they differ much
from the general run of humankind. --CGE
Jenifer Cartwright wrote:
> Carl,
>
> Most people ARE fools, bless 'em... from flag-waving super patriotism,
> to falling for phone, etc scams, to faith in lottery tickets/other
> gambling, to credit card debt, etc etc, not to mention participation in
> certain religious, etc beliefs, and mindless consumerism (it definitely
> pays to advertise to the American public), taste in TV shows, movies,
> music... I can't believe you think otherwise!
>
> --Jenifer
>
>
> --- On *Thu, 6/19/08, C. G. Estabrook /<galliher at uiuc.edu>/* wrote:
>
> From: C. G. Estabrook <galliher at uiuc.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Bush admin torture policy
> To: jencart13 at yahoo..com
> Cc: "Peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
> Date: Thursday, June 19, 2008, 2:24 PM
>
> The draft was ended precisely to prevent the sort of mutiny the US
faced in
> Vietnam, and to some extent it worked.
>
> G. Bush I said that the major effect of Gulf War I was, "By God,
we've
> kicked
> the Vietnam Syndrome once and for all!"
>
> But people are not fools, and what's happening in Iraq is coming
through --
> from
> the Abu Ghraib pictures to Taguba's report.
>
> The unprecedented propaganda might of the US is slowly wearing away --
70% of
> the US populace is opposed to this war, and it's the job of our
political
> class,
> Democrat and Republican, to make sure that that doesn't make any
> difference. So
> far they've done a pretty good job.
>
> Hence President Obama will be "as careful about getting out as we
were
> careless
> about getting in." (In fact, our leaders, Democrat and
Republican, were
> pretty
> deliberate about getting in -- and intend to stay: note what Obama and
the
> other
> Democrats are saying about "AfPak.") --CGE
>
>
> Jenifer Cartwright wrote:
> > Plenty of info out there if folks are interested in doing more
than
> > tuning in to Rush and O'Reilly for reassurance (I think most
voters
> > probably don't even bother doing that).
> >
> >
> >
> > Vietnam soldiers fought that war for a long time before they
revolted....
> > and no sign that those in Iraq and Afghanistan are ready to do
the same
> > in sufficient numbers to end those wars, so just seeing
what's going
> on
> > doesn't do it. I personally don't think most people are
paying all
> that
> > much attention, period, and probably never have in recent
decades. So
> > yes, it's up to activists to lead the way to the truth that
that
> > thoughtful commited few can't overlook (although largest
> demonstrations
> > ever around the globe against military action against Iraq
didn't have
>
> > any effect on the Bush Admin going ahead w/ the attack
anyhow)... and
> > for all of us to help elect the best candidates from the bottom
> > up... and then encourage them to be even better.
> >
> > --Jenifer
> >
> > --- On *Thu, 6/19/08, C. G. Estabrook
/<galliher at uiuc.edu>/* wrote:
> >
> > From: C. G. Estabrook <galliher at uiuc.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Bush admin torture policy
> > To: jencart13 at yahoo..com
> > Cc: "Sarah Tedrow-Azizi"
<sftedrow at gmail.com>,
> > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net, "LAURIE"
> <LAURIE at ADVANCENET.NET>
> > Date: Thursday, June 19, 2008, 10:11 AM
> >
> > You confuse the small political elite and the parties that
represent
> them
> > (Republican and Democrat) with the large majority of the
population.
> The US
> > spends about a third of of its GDP each year to manufacture
the
> consent of that
> >
> > larger group. It works. As a result, most Americans are
> substantially misled
> > about what the US does around the world. If they knew,
they'd be
> appalled
> > --
> > as, you rightly point out, the draftees sent to Vietnam were
when they
> saw it.
> > They consequently revolted. The task for activists is to
produce
> that same
> > consciousness today. --CGE
> >
> > Jenifer Cartwright wrote:
> > > Carl wrote:"If most US citizens actually knew what
was being
> done in
> > > their names, they would be appalled."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > First, an appalling number of people know exactly what
the US is
> doing
> > > in their names and they're fine w/ it. They start w/
the
> premise that
> > > the US is entitled to its empire and has a
responsibility to run
> the
> > > world (some of these people repeatedly vote to fund the
appalling
>
> > > behavior done in all our names).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Second, the MSM and school curriculae give the basic
facts of US
> > > behavior since its inception. Manifest Destiny,
acquisition of
> Indian
> > > lands (and Hawaii) does not appall them.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Third, the MSM and school curriculae give basic facts of
US
> behavior
> > > since 9/11. Starting two wars of revenge for a terrorist
attack
> by 20
> > > men did not appall them. As the behind the scenes
machinations of
> the
> > > Bush administration have become sensational news, there
has not
> been
> > > much of an outcry from citizens (or lawmakers) showing
they care
> all
> > > that much about what has been done in their names. (The
US
> electorate
> > > did not end the war in Vietnam, even after the Melai
massacre hit
> the
> > > front pages; the unwillingness of those in uniform to
continue
> fighting
> > > ended the war..)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Fourth, 35 articles of impeachment by Dennis Kucinich
(who also
> got the
> > > word 'out there' during two runs for the
Democratic
> nomination for
> >
> > > president... and got less than 5% of the vote) were not
acted
> upon by
> > > most who heard them...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Fifth, lotsa books exposing appalling US actions have
hit the
> best
> > > sellers' list (and I'm hoping the 35 Articles of
> Impeachment will
> > soon
> > > join them!) but most US citizens don't read those
books...
> and
> > don't pay
> > > all that much attention when the highlights hit the MSM.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I'd call myself realistic rather than elitist... but
> regardless, I do
> > > believe the Margaret Mead quote: "Never doubt that
a small
> group of
> > > thoughtful committed citizens can change the world.
Indeed it is
> the
> > > only thing that ever has."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --Jenifer
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On *Wed, 6/18/08, C. G. Estabrook
> /<galliher at uiuc.edu>/* wrote:
> > >
> > > From: C. G. Estabrook <galliher at uiuc.edu>
> > > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Bush admin torture
policy
> > > To: "Sarah Tedrow-Azizi"
<sftedrow at gmail.com>
> > > Cc: jencart13 at yahoo.com,
peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net,
> > "LAURIE"
> > > <LAURIE at ADVANCENET.NET>
> > > Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 10:47 PM
> > >
> > > You're welcome; I entirely agree. If most US
citizens
> actually
> > knew what
> > > was
> > > being done in their names, they would be appalled.
That
> shows what
> > groups like
> > >
> > > the well-named AWARE should be doing. --CGE
> > >
> > >
> > > Sarah Tedrow-Azizi wrote:
> > > > Thank you for putting this so eloquently.
> > > >
> > > > It's a dangerous path to write off an
entire
> population as
> > > "idiots," or
> > > > even "willingly ignorant," and takes
the tone
> of
> > elitism. We
> > > only have
> > > > access to the information we are given, and
often that
> access is
> > a
> > > > product of privilege. It makes little sense
that anyone
> would
> > make a
> > > > deliberate choice to be uninformed.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > C. G. Estabrook wrote:
> > > >> Given that policy is largely insulated from
politics
> in the
> > US, why
> > > >> don't we pay attention to what US
citizens
> actually
> > think, rather
> > > than
> > > >> what the media tell us they think -- and
rather than
> > dismissing them
> > > >> as "idiots" on the basis of that
very
> policy?
> > > >>
> > > >> Both political parties and the media are
far to the
> right of
> > the
> > > >> general population on a whole host of
issues and the
> > population is
> > > >> purposely atomized and kept apart from
political
> issues; they
> > know
> > > >> they can't really affect them -- which
is why
> they
> > don't care
> > > too much
> > > >> if Gore/Bush, Kerry/Bush. or
Clinton/Obama/McCain
> become
> > president..
> > > >> Specifically on foreign policy, the point
has been
> made
> > recently by
> > > >> Benjamin Page and Marshall Bouton in their
book,
> "The
> > Foreign
> > > Policy
> > > >> Disconnect."
> > > >>
> > > >> "Drawing on a series of national
surveys
> conducted
> > between 1974
> > > and
> > > >> 2004, Page and Bouton reveal that -—
contrary to
> > conventional wisdom
> > >
> > > >> -— Americans generally hold durable,
coherent, and
> sensible
> > opinions
> > >
> > > >> about foreign policy. Nonetheless, their
opinions
> often stand
> > in
> > > >> opposition to those of policymakers,
usually because
> of
> > different
> > > >> interests and values, rather than superior
wisdom
> among the
> > elite ....
> > > >> [For example] the public consistently and
> overwhelmingly
> > favors
> > > >> cooperative multilateral policy and
participation in
> > international
> > > >> treaties. Moreover, Americans’ foreign
policy
> opinions are
> > seldom
> > > >> divided along the usual lines: majorities
of
> virtually all
> > social,
> > > >> ideological, and partisan groups seek a
policy that
> pursues
> > the goals
> > > >> of security and justice through cooperative
> means."
> > > >>
> > > >> "Sometimes government-media propaganda
dupes
> the public
> > -- on
> > > Saddam
> > > >> and 9/11, to take a dramatic example. We
know the
> means very
> > well:
> > > >> huge government-media propaganda exercises,
which do
> have
> > detectable
> > > >> effects. But quite often the public is not
duped and
> > continues to
> > > >> oppose the policy decisions of the
government, the
> media, and
> > elite
> > > >> opinion, as public opinion studies
reveal."
> > > >>
> > > >> "The Chicago Council on Foreign
Relations,
> which
> > regularly
> > > monitors
> > > >> American attitudes on international issues,
> illustrates the
> > > >> disconnect. A considerable majority of
Americans
> favor
> > 'working
> > > within
> > > >> the United Nations, even when it adopts
policies
> that the
> > United
> > > >> States does not like.' Most Americans
also
> believe that
> > > 'countries
> > > >> should have the right to go to war on their
own only
> if they
> > (have)
> > > >> strong evidence that they are in imminent
danger of
> being
> > > attacked,'
> > > >> thus rejecting the bipartisan consensus on
> 'pre-emptive
> > war.'
> > > >>
> > > >> "On Iraq, polls by the Program on
International
> Policy
> > Attitudes
> > > show
> > > >> that a majority of Americans favor letting
the UN
> take the
> > lead in
> > > >> issues of security, reconstruction and
political
> transition
> > in that
> > > >> country."
> > > >>
> > > >> We see what voters actually say on these
matters in
> countries
> > like
> > > >> Venezuela and Spain, which are more
democratic than
> ours.
> > Even after
> > > >> the intense media campaign that was the
"Reagan
> > revolution"
> > > (in no
> > > >> election did more than one fourth of the
eligible
> voters vote
> > for
> > > >> him), polls showed that about 80 percent of
the
> public
> > thought that
> > > >> the government works for the few and the
special
> interests,
> > not for
> > > >> the people. (The numbers have undoubtedly
gone up in
> the Bush
> > years.)
> > > >>
> > > >> So we can pay attention to what serious
survey data
> reveals
> > about the
> > > >> real political views of Americans, or we
can trust
> what we
> > > "know"
> > > >> about those "idiots" (so
different from
> us) -- our
> > knowledge
> > > being a
> > > >> product of the US media... --CGE
> >
> >
>
>
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