[Peace-discuss] Bush admin torture policy
C. G. Estabrook
galliher at uiuc.edu
Fri Jun 20 19:32:48 CDT 2008
We're all capable of foolish -- and evil -- behavior, but the people I know best
are not generally fools, and I see no reason to think that they differ much
from the general run of humankind. --CGE
Jenifer Cartwright wrote:
>
> Carl,
>
> Most people ARE fools, bless 'em... from flag-waving super
> patriotism, to falling for phone, etc scams, to faith in lottery
> tickets/other gambling, to credit card debt, etc etc, not to
> mention participation in certain religious, etc beliefs, and
> mindless consumerism (it definitely pays to advertise to the
> American public), taste in TV shows, movies, music... I can't
> believe you think otherwise!
>
> --Jenifer
>
>
> --- On *Thu, 6/19/08, C. G. Estabrook /<galliher at uiuc.edu>/* wrote:
>
> From: C. G. Estabrook <galliher at uiuc.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Bush admin torture policy
> To: jencart13 at yahoo..com
> Cc: "Peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
> Date: Thursday, June 19, 2008, 2:24 PM
>
> The draft was ended precisely to prevent the sort of mutiny the US faced in
> Vietnam, and to some extent it worked.
>
> G. Bush I said that the major effect of Gulf War I was, "By God, we've
> kicked
> the Vietnam Syndrome once and for all!"
>
> But people are not fools, and what's happening in Iraq is coming through --
> from
> the Abu Ghraib pictures to Taguba's report.
>
> The unprecedented propaganda might of the US is slowly wearing away -- 70% of
> the US populace is opposed to this war, and it's the job of our political
> class,
> Democrat and Republican, to make sure that that doesn't make any
> difference. So
> far they've done a pretty good job.
>
> Hence President Obama will be "as careful about getting out as we were
> careless
> about getting in." (In fact, our leaders, Democrat and Republican, were
> pretty
> deliberate about getting in -- and intend to stay: note what Obama and the
> other
> Democrats are saying about "AfPak.") --CGE
>
>
> Jenifer Cartwright wrote:
> > Plenty of info out there if folks are interested in doing more than
> > tuning in to Rush and O'Reilly for reassurance (I think most voters
> > probably don't even bother doing that).
> >
> >
> >
> > Vietnam soldiers fought that war for a long time before they revolted....
> > and no sign that those in Iraq and Afghanistan are ready to do the same
> > in sufficient numbers to end those wars, so just seeing what's going
> on
> > doesn't do it. I personally don't think most people are paying all
> that
> > much attention, period, and probably never have in recent decades. So
> > yes, it's up to activists to lead the way to the truth that that
> > thoughtful commited few can't overlook (although largest
> demonstrations
> > ever around the globe against military action against Iraq didn't have
>
> > any effect on the Bush Admin going ahead w/ the attack anyhow)... and
> > for all of us to help elect the best candidates from the bottom
> > up... and then encourage them to be even better.
> >
> > --Jenifer
> >
> > --- On *Thu, 6/19/08, C. G. Estabrook /<galliher at uiuc.edu>/* wrote:
> >
> > From: C. G. Estabrook <galliher at uiuc.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Bush admin torture policy
> > To: jencart13 at yahoo..com
> > Cc: "Sarah Tedrow-Azizi" <sftedrow at gmail.com>,
> > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net, "LAURIE"
> <LAURIE at ADVANCENET.NET>
> > Date: Thursday, June 19, 2008, 10:11 AM
> >
> > You confuse the small political elite and the parties that represent
> them
> > (Republican and Democrat) with the large majority of the population.
> The US
> > spends about a third of of its GDP each year to manufacture the
> consent of that
> >
> > larger group. It works. As a result, most Americans are
> substantially misled
> > about what the US does around the world. If they knew, they'd be
> appalled
> > --
> > as, you rightly point out, the draftees sent to Vietnam were when they
> saw it.
> > They consequently revolted. The task for activists is to produce
> that same
> > consciousness today. --CGE
> >
> > Jenifer Cartwright wrote:
> > > Carl wrote:"If most US citizens actually knew what was being
> done in
> > > their names, they would be appalled."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > First, an appalling number of people know exactly what the US is
> doing
> > > in their names and they're fine w/ it. They start w/ the
> premise that
> > > the US is entitled to its empire and has a responsibility to run
> the
> > > world (some of these people repeatedly vote to fund the appalling
>
> > > behavior done in all our names).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Second, the MSM and school curriculae give the basic facts of US
> > > behavior since its inception. Manifest Destiny, acquisition of
> Indian
> > > lands (and Hawaii) does not appall them.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Third, the MSM and school curriculae give basic facts of US
> behavior
> > > since 9/11. Starting two wars of revenge for a terrorist attack
> by 20
> > > men did not appall them. As the behind the scenes machinations of
> the
> > > Bush administration have become sensational news, there has not
> been
> > > much of an outcry from citizens (or lawmakers) showing they care
> all
> > > that much about what has been done in their names. (The US
> electorate
> > > did not end the war in Vietnam, even after the Melai massacre hit
> the
> > > front pages; the unwillingness of those in uniform to continue
> fighting
> > > ended the war..)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Fourth, 35 articles of impeachment by Dennis Kucinich (who also
> got the
> > > word 'out there' during two runs for the Democratic
> nomination for
> >
> > > president... and got less than 5% of the vote) were not acted
> upon by
> > > most who heard them...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Fifth, lotsa books exposing appalling US actions have hit the
> best
> > > sellers' list (and I'm hoping the 35 Articles of
> Impeachment will
> > soon
> > > join them!) but most US citizens don't read those books...
> and
> > don't pay
> > > all that much attention when the highlights hit the MSM.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I'd call myself realistic rather than elitist... but
> regardless, I do
> > > believe the Margaret Mead quote: "Never doubt that a small
> group of
> > > thoughtful committed citizens can change the world. Indeed it is
> the
> > > only thing that ever has."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --Jenifer
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On *Wed, 6/18/08, C. G. Estabrook
> /<galliher at uiuc.edu>/* wrote:
> > >
> > > From: C. G. Estabrook <galliher at uiuc.edu>
> > > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Bush admin torture policy
> > > To: "Sarah Tedrow-Azizi" <sftedrow at gmail.com>
> > > Cc: jencart13 at yahoo.com, peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net,
> > "LAURIE"
> > > <LAURIE at ADVANCENET.NET>
> > > Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 10:47 PM
> > >
> > > You're welcome; I entirely agree. If most US citizens
> actually
> > knew what
> > > was
> > > being done in their names, they would be appalled. That
> shows what
> > groups like
> > >
> > > the well-named AWARE should be doing. --CGE
> > >
> > >
> > > Sarah Tedrow-Azizi wrote:
> > > > Thank you for putting this so eloquently.
> > > >
> > > > It's a dangerous path to write off an entire
> population as
> > > "idiots," or
> > > > even "willingly ignorant," and takes the tone
> of
> > elitism. We
> > > only have
> > > > access to the information we are given, and often that
> access is
> > a
> > > > product of privilege. It makes little sense that anyone
> would
> > make a
> > > > deliberate choice to be uninformed.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > C. G. Estabrook wrote:
> > > >> Given that policy is largely insulated from politics
> in the
> > US, why
> > > >> don't we pay attention to what US citizens
> actually
> > think, rather
> > > than
> > > >> what the media tell us they think -- and rather than
> > dismissing them
> > > >> as "idiots" on the basis of that very
> policy?
> > > >>
> > > >> Both political parties and the media are far to the
> right of
> > the
> > > >> general population on a whole host of issues and the
> > population is
> > > >> purposely atomized and kept apart from political
> issues; they
> > know
> > > >> they can't really affect them -- which is why
> they
> > don't care
> > > too much
> > > >> if Gore/Bush, Kerry/Bush. or Clinton/Obama/McCain
> become
> > president..
> > > >> Specifically on foreign policy, the point has been
> made
> > recently by
> > > >> Benjamin Page and Marshall Bouton in their book,
> "The
> > Foreign
> > > Policy
> > > >> Disconnect."
> > > >>
> > > >> "Drawing on a series of national surveys
> conducted
> > between 1974
> > > and
> > > >> 2004, Page and Bouton reveal that -— contrary to
> > conventional wisdom
> > >
> > > >> -— Americans generally hold durable, coherent, and
> sensible
> > opinions
> > >
> > > >> about foreign policy. Nonetheless, their opinions
> often stand
> > in
> > > >> opposition to those of policymakers, usually because
> of
> > different
> > > >> interests and values, rather than superior wisdom
> among the
> > elite ....
> > > >> [For example] the public consistently and
> overwhelmingly
> > favors
> > > >> cooperative multilateral policy and participation in
> > international
> > > >> treaties. Moreover, Americans’ foreign policy
> opinions are
> > seldom
> > > >> divided along the usual lines: majorities of
> virtually all
> > social,
> > > >> ideological, and partisan groups seek a policy that
> pursues
> > the goals
> > > >> of security and justice through cooperative
> means."
> > > >>
> > > >> "Sometimes government-media propaganda dupes
> the public
> > -- on
> > > Saddam
> > > >> and 9/11, to take a dramatic example. We know the
> means very
> > well:
> > > >> huge government-media propaganda exercises, which do
> have
> > detectable
> > > >> effects. But quite often the public is not duped and
> > continues to
> > > >> oppose the policy decisions of the government, the
> media, and
> > elite
> > > >> opinion, as public opinion studies reveal."
> > > >>
> > > >> "The Chicago Council on Foreign Relations,
> which
> > regularly
> > > monitors
> > > >> American attitudes on international issues,
> illustrates the
> > > >> disconnect. A considerable majority of Americans
> favor
> > 'working
> > > within
> > > >> the United Nations, even when it adopts policies
> that the
> > United
> > > >> States does not like.' Most Americans also
> believe that
> > > 'countries
> > > >> should have the right to go to war on their own only
> if they
> > (have)
> > > >> strong evidence that they are in imminent danger of
> being
> > > attacked,'
> > > >> thus rejecting the bipartisan consensus on
> 'pre-emptive
> > war.'
> > > >>
> > > >> "On Iraq, polls by the Program on International
> Policy
> > Attitudes
> > > show
> > > >> that a majority of Americans favor letting the UN
> take the
> > lead in
> > > >> issues of security, reconstruction and political
> transition
> > in that
> > > >> country."
> > > >>
> > > >> We see what voters actually say on these matters in
> countries
> > like
> > > >> Venezuela and Spain, which are more democratic than
> ours.
> > Even after
> > > >> the intense media campaign that was the "Reagan
> > revolution"
> > > (in no
> > > >> election did more than one fourth of the eligible
> voters vote
> > for
> > > >> him), polls showed that about 80 percent of the
> public
> > thought that
> > > >> the government works for the few and the special
> interests,
> > not for
> > > >> the people. (The numbers have undoubtedly gone up in
> the Bush
> > years.)
> > > >>
> > > >> So we can pay attention to what serious survey data
> reveals
> > about the
> > > >> real political views of Americans, or we can trust
> what we
> > > "know"
> > > >> about those "idiots" (so different from
> us) -- our
> > knowledge
> > > being a
> > > >> product of the US media... --CGE
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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>
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