[Peace-discuss] Auto bailout - gas guzzlers guzzling more than
gas?
E. Wayne Johnson
ewj at pigs.ag
Sat Nov 15 20:16:33 CST 2008
Its not letting the industry die. It aint all unhealthy.
If GM dies, it will make more room for some others to survive
if they are smart enough and innovative enough and lucky enough.
One could imagine maybe in a few years there might be
only a few 1950s to late 80s model cars (everything else had quit
running) and other Real Hybrids on the road. (I
mean the sort of real hybrids they drove in the Mad Max movies.) Sort
of like Cuba.
I think that is not one of the possible futures, but interesting to
imagine.
Nationalizing a Zombie company would just make it more difficult to
excise the dead meat.
Look what a mess the Chrysler bailout became.
Industries become obsolete. Its a normal process. What about all the
candle wick makers
and the gas lamp factories and the carriage workers, and the cast iron
radiator workers etc etc etc.
It's not just mismanagement its obsolescence too.
LAURIE SOLOMON wrote:
> I fail to see how letting the industry die will help anything - especially
> since I do not see the people of the US giving up their cars and trucks and
> since there are so many already interdependent industries and businesses
> connected to the auto industry. Given all the people employed by that
> industry and all the directly and indirectly related industries, I think it
> would cost more to cushion the unemployment and retrain all those employees
> than it would to nationalize the industry and keep it functioning. Just
> because under private control management had stupid unproductive policies
> and made unwise decisions is no reason to kill the industry per se;
> nationalizing it and changing the premises and policies would provide a
> remedy to the mismanagement problem without killing the industry or creating
> massive unemployemtn and iots associated costs.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net
> [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of
> n.dahlheim at mchsi.com
> Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 7:01 PM
> To: E. Wayne Johnson
> Cc: Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; laurie at advancenet.net
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Auto bailout - gas guzzlers guzzling more than
> gas?
>
> While I agree with Laurie's analytical breakdown of why the Big Auto
> companies should be nationalized
> and the implications this has for the capitalistic myth that continues to
> bewilder so many and inspire so
> many a failed policy; I think Wayne is basically right. The car companies
> must die---they have had
> poor management for a very long time. AG Daimler was positively thrilled to
> sell of Chrysler to
> Cerberus not too long ago; Chrysler's American management routinely insulted
> the German members
> of the car company's management team with their intransigence and obstinancy
> regarding company
> governance. GM, as we all know, under CEO Rick Wagoner bowed to oil company
> pressure to shut
> down the production of EV-1 electric cars in the mid-1990s. And, despite
> the overwhelming evidence
> that global oil production was getting set to peak in the early 21st century
> and the growing
> dependence of the United States on foreign oil imports, GM decided to avoid
> investing in capital
> improvements to build fuel-efficient vehicles. Instead, GM decided to
> produce gas guzzling "light
> truck" SUVs in order to take advantage of loopholes in the CAFE standards.
> GM did not reinvest in
> retraining its workforce, refurbishing factories, or developing much more
> efficient vehicles. As such,
> there will be heavy consequences for GM's failure---the govt should cushion
> the blow to GM's
> workers---but, let the company die. Spending precious money on them in a
> time of credit crisis is
> foolish when there are so many other social needs and many other businesses
> succumbing to failure in
> this current economic depression.
>
> Best,
> Nick
>
>
> ---------------------- Original Message: ---------------------
> From: "E. Wayne Johnson" <ewj at pigs.ag>
> To: LAURIE SOLOMON <LAURIE at ADVANCENET.NET>
> Cc: 'peace discuss' <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Auto bailout - gas guzzlers guzzling
> more than gas?
> Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 21:12:54 +0000
>
>
>> The big companies need to fail because inherent decay and obsolences.
>>
>> Nationalized, they will become administrative monsters like universities,
>> constantly wasting money, perverting reforms, and continually begging for
>> new infusions of money.
>>
>> Let the collapsing big companies die like so many old dead trees,
>> so that fresh new growth can occur.
>>
>> LAURIE SOLOMON wrote:
>>
>>> Try this on for size: If a company is too big to let fail, it should be
>>> nationalized since it is no longer a private operation with only local
>>> impact and consequences but a national operation with societal impact
>>>
> and
>
>>> consequences. The whole notion of Capitalism and free enterprise was,
>>>
> as I
>
>>> understand it, based on small local enterprises owned and directly run
>>>
> by
>
>>> entrepreneurial individuals whose own money was at risk so as to justify
>>> their getting the profits. It was not based on large national and
>>> international corporations run by hired managers who have little
>>>
> personal
>
>>> stake in the corporation other than employment and are protected by
>>>
> "Golden
>
>>> Parachutes" on behalf of institutional stockholders and third party
>>> investors who have little actual control over operations.
>>>
>>> If these corporations are going to use national resources and have such
>>> significance to the national economy and the lives of so many individual
>>> citizens, then they should be owned and operated by the citizenry for
>>>
> the
>
>>> benefit of the common good of the citizenry under governmental
>>>
> supervision
>
>>> and control.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net
>>> [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of E. Wayne
>>> Johnson
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 12:47 PM
>>> To: kmedina at illinois.edu
>>> Cc: peace discuss
>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Auto bailout - gas guzzlers guzzling more
>>>
> than
>
>>> gas?
>>>
>>> Just simply let the big companies fail. They eventually will anyway,
>>>
> and
>
>>> bailing them out only prolongs the agony and intensifies the impact.
>>> If the tree doesnt produce good fruit, why do we burden the ground with
>>> a bad tree?
>>> Cut the dead trees down, and make room for good new trees.
>>>
>>> If there is any benefit to the society from domestic auto production,
>>> some wise
>>> entrepreneurs will rise up and start producing cars again, or mopeds or
>>> bicycles or 3 wheel bikes, etc. which they could do
>>> now if they were not being crowded out by the giants who use government
>>> regulations as
>>> a barrier to competition and entry of useful new small businesses.
>>>
>>> Deep psychological blow?
>>> Oh my dear. You break my heart. Things are tough all over guys.
>>> But hey. I understand. Here's a hug and a hanky.
>>>
>>> Karen Medina wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Ricky wrote: >
>>>> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/newspid=washingtonstory&sid=aBlCucXR33Jw
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "The failure of those companies would likely bring down parts-makers,
>>>>
>>>>
>>> dealerships
>>>
>>>
>>>> and suppliers in addition to inflicting a deep psychological blow."
>>>>
>>>> The whole argument about "too big to fail" is frightening. I think
>>>>
> there
>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> should be
>>>
>>>
>>>> restrictions on how large any company / bank can become. Wouldn't a
>>>>
> bunch
>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> of
>>>
>>>
>>>> smaller companies create a more competitive environment? Allow the
>>>>
>>>>
>>> industries to
>>>
>>>
>>>> change directions a bit faster? Spread out the profits? Have fewer
>>>>
>>>>
>>> extremely high
>>>
>>>
>>>> paid individuals? Be kinder to their workers? Lay off fewer people in
>>>>
> hard
>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> times?
>>>
>>>
>>>> -karen medina
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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