[Peace-discuss] Mike Gravel on Palin

Wed Sep 3 19:56:51 CDT 2008

There are only two possible outcomes for the coming election. On some  
issues, notably in foreign policy, there may be not much from which  
to choose; on others such as respecting the Constitution's ideals,  
womens' rights, Supreme court nominations, education, the  
environment, there are meaningful differences. You can vote as you  
like in Illinois, since Obama will win there easily, but you would  
have to think hard if you were a voter in Ohio, Pennsylvania and  
Florida.

On Sep 3, 2008, at 6:03 PM, Neil Parthun wrote:

> I thought we didn't have to deal with ad hominem and straw men  
> arguments.  Seriously. The only difference here with straw men and  
> actual debate is that the straw men aren't able to hit back.

Straw men?
>
> I'm getting fed up with people putting other peoples' opinions into  
> a neat little box to meet their own personal biases.

What biases? That it makes a difference on who becomes president?
>
> The anti-war movement should not fall into the politics of a  
> politician -- especially one who whose major difference in a  
> preference in killing Afghani and Pakistanis rather than Iraqis.   
> Criticism of both candidates is not only right but vital.  We  
> should promote actual choice of candidates instead of "NOT MCCAIN!"  
> When I go shopping for cereal, must I buy "Cheerios" or "NOT  
> CHEERIOS"?

Buy oatmeal and Cherios! One does not have to fall into the trap that  
if one does one thing, one cannot do another.  You can be antiwar and  
vote against a McCain administration by voting for Obama. You can  
also harshly criticize those aspects of his positions with which you  
disagree. Who knows, if enough did this, he might change his tune.

>
> If you want to vote for a pro-war Democrat, be my guest.  But don't  
> try to tell me that I (or others) support McCain just because we  
> won't swallow the Obama Kool-Aid because it is some low rent  
> baiting tactics and I honestly expected better.

You have little notion of what I think about the candidates in the  
coming election. Politics will never present you with all the best  
good choices. Apart revolution, political progress is slow and  
generally moves with small steps. You take what you can.

--mkb

>
> Its not the act of seeing with our own eyes alone; its correctly  
> comprehending what we see,
>
>      Neil
>
>  We absolutely have to refuse to attribute any kind of permanency  
> to that which is simply because it is.
> [angela v. davis, 1944-]
>
> Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could.  
> Some blunders and absurdities have crept in; forget them as soon as  
> you can. Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and  
> with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense.
> [ralph waldo emerson, 1803-1882]
>
> On Sep 3, 2008, at 2:38 PM, Brussel Morton K. wrote:
>
> I care not what Larry Bartels, an élitest academic [http:// 
> www.princeton.edu/~bartels/biography.html], says. You needn't quote  
> someone else for what are your own opinions, all the more ironic in  
> this case in that you too seem to be one of the élites excoriated.  
> Perhaps you—I'm not sure about Bartels— would be happy with a  
> theocratic state, a Catholic or fundamentalist one one no doubt,  
> that would forbid a woman's right to choose and get rid of public  
> education among other things. McCain might be happy with that as  
> well. I'm getting fed up with your polemical emails, which seem to  
> do nothing but attempt to convince readers to make it possible for  
> a McCain presidency.
>
> --mkb
>
>
> On Sep 3, 2008, at 2:09 PM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
>
>> Biden is a perfectly conventional tool of militarist and corporate  
>> interests, responsible for murderous policies at home and abroad,  
>> from the Middle East war to the new bankruptcy law. Insofar as she  
>> departs from those policies, I (like Gravel) would prefer Palin.
>>
>> As Larry Bartels points out, "it is affluent, college-educated  
>> people ... who are most exercised by guns and religion. In  
>> contemporary American politics, social issues are the opiate of  
>> the elites." --CGE
>>
>>
>> Brussel Morton K. wrote:
>>> Gravel sounds deluded. His thesis is that ignorance is bliss.  
>>> Sarah Palin's
>>> incorruptibility, with recent revelations, seems not so clear  
>>> after all. He
>>> should have waited a bit before writing….
>>> The implication of all the rants on this listserve against Obama- 
>>> Biden is
>>> that  it's better to have a McCain-Palin executive than one of  
>>> Obama-Biden.
>>> Or, really, it doesn't matter.
>>> Incidentally, do you believe Palin to be less belligerent and  
>>> corporate than
>>> Biden, as Gravel suggests? I guess we'll just have to wait and  
>>> see. Or maybe
>>> you favor her antiabortion, creationist, NRA, energy,  
>>> environmental,…
>>> positions, which Gravel sloughs off as an afterthought. ?   --mkb
>>> On Sep 3, 2008, at 11:21 AM, Matt Reichel wrote:
>>>> Interesting piece by former Alaska Senator Mike Gravel on  
>>>> McCain's running
>>>> mate, Mrs Sarah Palin.
>>>> Echoing the words of Alex Cockburn previously posted on this  
>>>> list, far from
>>>> being "cooky", he says: "Foreign policy experience? Thank god  
>>>> she has none
>>>> beyond that of a normal citizen subject to the militarization of  
>>>> our
>>>> culture over the past 50 years, particularly so in Alaska with  
>>>> its strong
>>>> military presence. The three other would-be leaders have tons of  
>>>> experience
>>>> among them. But whether liberal or conservative all three are  
>>>> committed to
>>>> a policy of American imperialism with the self-appointed role of  
>>>> world
>>>> policeman. This role of trying to influence the world with our  
>>>> military
>>>> might sustains bloated defense budgets that profit the few and  
>>>> impoverish
>>>> the social and economic needs of the many."
>>>> "Sarah Palin's Clean Slate: Thank God, She Has No Foreign Policy  
>>>> Experience!"
>>>> http://counterpunch.org/gravel09032008.html
>>
>
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