FW: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous

Thu Aug 13 14:37:35 CDT 2009

First, I would question if one should shout "fire" in a crowded theater even
if there were a fire if such shouting would cause panic and if there were
another way to calmly communicate the situation that would avoid panic.  But
you knew damn well what I intended the example to show and that I was
referring to false shouts of "fire."

Second, while the quote, indeed, came from the cited case and was part of
the Holmes opinion, I was not making specific reference to the case or the
opinion per se.  Consequently, the content of the case or what Schenck
actually did or did not do, what the government claimed or did not claim,
and what the Supreme court found and decided or did not find or decide are
not really relevant to my comments.

> the US SC has never reversed the general concept of eugenic
sterilization.)

>And Holmes' decision in Schenck was not overturned for 50 years.

Come on, you know how things work.  The court cannot reverse anything until
a new case of a similar type is presented to it for decision.  I have no
knowledge of any other cases that were brought before the SC regarding
similar matters after either the Buck v. Bell [1927] case or the Schenck
decision. In the Schenck case, it was generally accepted by the public that
there were limits on freedom of expression and that Holmes' illustrative
example in his opinion was a rhetorical example and not a judicial standard
or something that directly related to the case at hand.  In the Buck v. Bell
case, eugenics in the US went out of favor as a practice and no new cases
pertaining to sterilization per se arose although some tangential cases
related to Eugenics theory or practices have come up but they evidently were
substantively and significantly different in content from the sterilization
case that they did not provide a basis for reversing the earlier opinion
only for modifying its nature and scope as it pertained to other types of
practices.

The Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969) standard is along the lines that I was
referring to, although I would like to see some a provision that stated that
the "directed to inciting and likely to incite imminent lawless action"
condition be an empirically provable condition for which empirical evidence
supporting the contention be required and that a clarification of the
criteria that such evidentiary support had to meet be explicated stated.

-----Original Message-----
From: C. G. Estabrook [mailto:galliher at illinois.edu] 
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 1:05 PM
To: LAURIE SOLOMON
Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
Subject: Re: FW: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous

Of course you should shout "Fire!" in a crowded theatre, if there is a fire.

The famous line comes from an utterly reprehensible SC decision in 1919,
Schenck 
v. United States. "The most stringent protection of free speech would not 
protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic," wrote

Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. How had Schenck "falsely shouted fire"?  He had 
distributed flyers opposing the draft!  The SC in its majesty ruled that the
USG 
could punish him for that, regardless of the First Amendment.

(The great jurist Holmes, fond of sententious sayings, was also admired by
some 
peculiar people for his ruling in Buck v. Bell [1927], permitting the 
involuntary sterilization of a young Virgina woman: "Three generations of 
imbeciles are enough." Expert testimony came from a field worker for the 
"Eugenics Record Office" -- Dr. Arthur Estabrook...  Nazi eugenics
legislation 
was based on the American practice, established by Holmes; the US SC has
never 
reversed the general concept of eugenic sterilization.)

And Holmes' decision in Schenck was not overturned for 50 years. In
Brandenburg 
v. Ohio (1969) the court limited the scope of banned speech to that which
would 
be directed to and likely to incite imminent lawless action (e.g. a riot).
The 
test in Brandenburg is the current SC standard -- the government cannot
punish 
inflammatory speech unless it is directed to inciting and likely to incite 
imminent lawless action.

Obviously the hate speech that Jenifer et al. want banned does not pass that

test.  --CGE

LAURIE SOLOMON wrote:
> While I do not entirely disagree with you on this Carl, I do think there
are
> certain special occasions in which freedom of speech and action are and
> should be limited (i.e., screaming "fire" in a crowded theater); but
clearly
> a precisely stated standard like "speech and actions that present a
provable
> clear and present danger of inciting others to take actions that create a
> provable and clear danger or in themselves create such a clear and
provable
> danger" should be established and used in exercising both prior and
> after-the-fact censorship, which should be determined in a court of law
with
> rights to appeal.  I think that this holds for all categories of speech
and
> action including "hate speech."
> 
> In reference to the subject line, " Lou Dobbs is dangerous," we are all
> dangerous.  All the animals are equally dangerous; but some are more
> effective than others in being dangerous.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net
> [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C. G.
> Estabrook
> Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:21 AM
> To: Jenifer Cartwright
> Cc: Peace-discuss List
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous
> 
> You seem to ascribe a mystical power to "listening to hate speech": like
the
> Shadow, it seems to have the power to cloud men's minds...  And on that
> basis
> you would ban it, apparently.
> 
> In fact, constructing a category of "hate speech" (who decides what
belongs
> in
> the category?) and then banning it is clearly contrary to the First
> Amendment.
> 
> The analogy between Dobbs and Goodman -- they disagree in most of what
they
> say
>   -- is formal, not material.  Stopping anyone from speaking on the basis
of
> the
> content of their speech is censorship.  --CGE
> 
> Jenifer Cartwright wrote:
>> Pretty obvious that those listening to hate speech (including those on
> this
>> list) lose their ability to differentiate betw dissent and hate/hateful
>> speech. The Amy Goodman-Lou Dobbs analogy is a good example of how that
> can
>> happen. --Jenifer
>>
>> --- On *Wed, 8/12/09, unionyes /<unionyes at ameritech.net>/* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Fw:
> Lou
>> Dobbs is dangerous To: "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at illinois.edu> Cc:
>> "Peace-discuss List" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> Date: Wednesday,
>> August 12, 2009, 4:58 PM
>>
>> Carl,
>>
>> I usually agree with most of your points and analysis, but how you can
> claim
>> ANY similarities between Lou Dobbs ( and his promotion of racism against
>> Mexicans and now inciting violence against those who want a watered down
>> public healthcare option ) and Amy Goodman is beyond me !
>>
>> David Johnson
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "C. G. Estabrook"
> <galliher at illinois.edu 
>> <http://us.mc449.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=galliher@illinois.edu>> To:
>> "Jenifer Cartwright" <jencart13 at yahoo.com 
>> <http://us.mc449.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jencart13@yahoo.com>> Cc:
>> "Peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net 
>>
>
<http://us.mc449.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=peace-discuss@lists.chambana.n
> et>>
>>  Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 3:02 PM Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss]
Fw:
>> Lou Dobbs is dangerous
>>
>>
>>> If this were about Amy Goodman, we'd regard it as an attempt at
>> censorship.
>>>
>>> Jenifer Cartwright wrote:
>>>>
>>>> --- On *Tue, 8/11/09, Jim Dean, Democracy for America
>> /<info at democracyforamerica.com 
>>
>
<http://us.mc449.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=info@democracyforamerica.com>>
> /*
>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: Jim Dean, Democracy for America
>> <info at democracyforamerica.com 
>>
>
<http://us.mc449.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=info@democracyforamerica.com>>
> 
>> Subject:
>>>> Lou Dobbs is dangerous To: jencart13 at yahoo.com
>> <http://us.mc449.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jencart13@yahoo.com> Date:
>> Tuesday, August 11,
>>>> 2009, 2:21 PM
>>>>
>>>> Jenifer -
>>>>
>>>> It's time to get Lou Dobbs and his hate speech off the air.
>>>>
>>>> Yesterday, our friends at /Media Matters for America/, who are
>> dedicated to
>>>> comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative 
>>>> misinformation in the U.S. media, caught Lou Dobbs promoting
>> hate and
>>>> inciting violence towards Governor Howard Dean.
>>>>
>>>> With violence from right-wing extremist groups on the rise and
>> Republican
>>>> backed mobs hanging cardboard versions of members of congress in
>> effigy, Lou
>>>> Dobbs' statement is dangerous.. Enough is enough.
>>>>
>>>> It's time for CNN and the United Stations Radio Network to fire
>> Lou Dobbs. Call Now and demand Lou Dobbs be taken off the air 
>> <http://dfa2.convio.net/site/R?i=R0TlwMzgXX7kD7BRD8xOtA...> *WATCH THE
> CLIP
>>>> AND GET THE NUMBERS TO CALL NOW
>> <http://dfa2.convio.net/site/R?i=jHAUT1gq_X1Hc10eJFtoBQ..> *
>>>>
>>>> This isn't the first time Lou Dobbs has used the air waves to
>> promote hate
>>>> and embarrass CNN.
>>>>
>>>> His relentless promotion of debunked, racially charged
>> conspiracy theories
>>>> about President Obama's birth certificate have already seriously
>> damaged
>>>> CNN's credibility. Yet, Lou Dobbs remains on the air.
>>>>
>>>> Now, he's gone too far. He's not just making CNN look bad, he's
>> inciting
>>>> violence to stop Governor Dean from fighting for President
>> Obama's health
>>>> insurance option. That's not just un-American, it's
>> irresponsible and
>>>> dangerous.
>>>>
>>>> It's up to us to make sure CNN and the United Stations Radio
>> Network know
>>>> we've had enough.
>>>>
>>>> *CALL NOW AND DEMAND LOU DOBBS BE TAKEN OFF THE AIR
>> <http://dfa2.convio.net/site/R?i=R0inr8Lzz5A9YYfePW7zcQ..>*
>>>> This isn't just about my brother Howard; this is about the
>> America we all
>>>> want to live in.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for everything you do,
>>>>
>>>> -Jim
>>>>
>>>> Jim Dean, Chair Democracy for America
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Democracy for America relies on you and the people-power of more
>> than one
>>>> million members to fund the grassroots organizing and training
>> that delivers
>>>> progressive change on the issues that matter. Please Contribute
>> Today <http://dfa2.convio.net/site/R?i=gR2xuB6OE3w6DPjhstAMpQ..> and
> support
>> our
>>>> mission. Paid for by Democracy for America,
>> http://democracyforamerica.com/ 
>> <http://dfa2.convio.net/site/R?i=o5f_unSbiywE97EjZsBQgg..> and not
> authorized
>>>> by any candidate. Contributions to Democracy for America are not
>> deductible
>>>> for federal income tax purposes.
>>>>
>>>> This message was sent to jencart13 at yahoo.com
>> <http://us.mc449.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jencart13@yahoo.com>. Visit
>> your subscription
>>>> management page
>> <http://dfa2.convio.net/site/CO?i=E6vZJ3CK0mrjY8iWPsdPv3reE_rCNO0w&cid=0 
>>
<http://dfa2.convio.net/site/CO?i=E6vZJ3CK0mrjY8iWPsdPv3reE_rCNO0w&cid=0>>
> to
>>>> modify email preferences or to unsubscribe from further
>> communications.
>>> _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing
> list 
>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>
<http://us.mc449.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.n
> et>
>>> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
>> _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing
list
> 
>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net 
>>
>
<http://us.mc449.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.n
> et>
>>  http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing
list
> 
>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net 
>> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
> _______________________________________________
> Peace-discuss mailing list
> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Peace-discuss mailing list
> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss