FW: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous

Thu Aug 13 13:04:34 CDT 2009

Of course you should shout "Fire!" in a crowded theatre, if there is a fire.

The famous line comes from an utterly reprehensible SC decision in 1919, Schenck 
v. United States. "The most stringent protection of free speech would not 
protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic," wrote 
Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. How had Schenck "falsely shouted fire"?  He had 
distributed flyers opposing the draft!  The SC in its majesty ruled that the USG 
could punish him for that, regardless of the First Amendment.

(The great jurist Holmes, fond of sententious sayings, was also admired by some 
peculiar people for his ruling in Buck v. Bell [1927], permitting the 
involuntary sterilization of a young Virgina woman: "Three generations of 
imbeciles are enough." Expert testimony came from a field worker for the 
"Eugenics Record Office" -- Dr. Arthur Estabrook...  Nazi eugenics legislation 
was based on the American practice, established by Holmes; the US SC has never 
reversed the general concept of eugenic sterilization.)

And Holmes' decision in Schenck was not overturned for 50 years. In Brandenburg 
v. Ohio (1969) the court limited the scope of banned speech to that which would 
be directed to and likely to incite imminent lawless action (e.g. a riot). The 
test in Brandenburg is the current SC standard -- the government cannot punish 
inflammatory speech unless it is directed to inciting and likely to incite 
imminent lawless action.

Obviously the hate speech that Jenifer et al. want banned does not pass that 
test.  --CGE

LAURIE SOLOMON wrote:
> While I do not entirely disagree with you on this Carl, I do think there are
> certain special occasions in which freedom of speech and action are and
> should be limited (i.e., screaming "fire" in a crowded theater); but clearly
> a precisely stated standard like "speech and actions that present a provable
> clear and present danger of inciting others to take actions that create a
> provable and clear danger or in themselves create such a clear and provable
> danger" should be established and used in exercising both prior and
> after-the-fact censorship, which should be determined in a court of law with
> rights to appeal.  I think that this holds for all categories of speech and
> action including "hate speech."
> 
> In reference to the subject line, " Lou Dobbs is dangerous," we are all
> dangerous.  All the animals are equally dangerous; but some are more
> effective than others in being dangerous.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net
> [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C. G.
> Estabrook
> Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:21 AM
> To: Jenifer Cartwright
> Cc: Peace-discuss List
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous
> 
> You seem to ascribe a mystical power to "listening to hate speech": like the
> Shadow, it seems to have the power to cloud men's minds...  And on that
> basis
> you would ban it, apparently.
> 
> In fact, constructing a category of "hate speech" (who decides what belongs
> in
> the category?) and then banning it is clearly contrary to the First
> Amendment.
> 
> The analogy between Dobbs and Goodman -- they disagree in most of what they
> say
>   -- is formal, not material.  Stopping anyone from speaking on the basis of
> the
> content of their speech is censorship.  --CGE
> 
> Jenifer Cartwright wrote:
>> Pretty obvious that those listening to hate speech (including those on
> this
>> list) lose their ability to differentiate betw dissent and hate/hateful
>> speech. The Amy Goodman-Lou Dobbs analogy is a good example of how that
> can
>> happen. --Jenifer
>>
>> --- On *Wed, 8/12/09, unionyes /<unionyes at ameritech.net>/* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Fw:
> Lou
>> Dobbs is dangerous To: "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at illinois.edu> Cc:
>> "Peace-discuss List" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> Date: Wednesday,
>> August 12, 2009, 4:58 PM
>>
>> Carl,
>>
>> I usually agree with most of your points and analysis, but how you can
> claim
>> ANY similarities between Lou Dobbs ( and his promotion of racism against
>> Mexicans and now inciting violence against those who want a watered down
>> public healthcare option ) and Amy Goodman is beyond me !
>>
>> David Johnson
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "C. G. Estabrook"
> <galliher at illinois.edu 
>> <http://us.mc449.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=galliher@illinois.edu>> To:
>> "Jenifer Cartwright" <jencart13 at yahoo.com 
>> <http://us.mc449.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jencart13@yahoo.com>> Cc:
>> "Peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net 
>>
> <http://us.mc449.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=peace-discuss@lists.chambana.n
> et>>
>>  Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 3:02 PM Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Fw:
>> Lou Dobbs is dangerous
>>
>>
>>> If this were about Amy Goodman, we'd regard it as an attempt at
>> censorship.
>>>
>>> Jenifer Cartwright wrote:
>>>>
>>>> --- On *Tue, 8/11/09, Jim Dean, Democracy for America
>> /<info at democracyforamerica.com 
>>
> <http://us.mc449.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=info@democracyforamerica.com>>
> /*
>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: Jim Dean, Democracy for America
>> <info at democracyforamerica.com 
>>
> <http://us.mc449.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=info@democracyforamerica.com>>
> 
>> Subject:
>>>> Lou Dobbs is dangerous To: jencart13 at yahoo.com
>> <http://us.mc449.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jencart13@yahoo.com> Date:
>> Tuesday, August 11,
>>>> 2009, 2:21 PM
>>>>
>>>> Jenifer -
>>>>
>>>> It's time to get Lou Dobbs and his hate speech off the air.
>>>>
>>>> Yesterday, our friends at /Media Matters for America/, who are
>> dedicated to
>>>> comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative 
>>>> misinformation in the U.S. media, caught Lou Dobbs promoting
>> hate and
>>>> inciting violence towards Governor Howard Dean.
>>>>
>>>> With violence from right-wing extremist groups on the rise and
>> Republican
>>>> backed mobs hanging cardboard versions of members of congress in
>> effigy, Lou
>>>> Dobbs' statement is dangerous.. Enough is enough.
>>>>
>>>> It's time for CNN and the United Stations Radio Network to fire
>> Lou Dobbs. Call Now and demand Lou Dobbs be taken off the air 
>> <http://dfa2.convio.net/site/R?i=R0TlwMzgXX7kD7BRD8xOtA...> *WATCH THE
> CLIP
>>>> AND GET THE NUMBERS TO CALL NOW
>> <http://dfa2.convio.net/site/R?i=jHAUT1gq_X1Hc10eJFtoBQ..> *
>>>>
>>>> This isn't the first time Lou Dobbs has used the air waves to
>> promote hate
>>>> and embarrass CNN.
>>>>
>>>> His relentless promotion of debunked, racially charged
>> conspiracy theories
>>>> about President Obama's birth certificate have already seriously
>> damaged
>>>> CNN's credibility. Yet, Lou Dobbs remains on the air.
>>>>
>>>> Now, he's gone too far. He's not just making CNN look bad, he's
>> inciting
>>>> violence to stop Governor Dean from fighting for President
>> Obama's health
>>>> insurance option. That's not just un-American, it's
>> irresponsible and
>>>> dangerous.
>>>>
>>>> It's up to us to make sure CNN and the United Stations Radio
>> Network know
>>>> we've had enough.
>>>>
>>>> *CALL NOW AND DEMAND LOU DOBBS BE TAKEN OFF THE AIR
>> <http://dfa2.convio.net/site/R?i=R0inr8Lzz5A9YYfePW7zcQ..>*
>>>> This isn't just about my brother Howard; this is about the
>> America we all
>>>> want to live in.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for everything you do,
>>>>
>>>> -Jim
>>>>
>>>> Jim Dean, Chair Democracy for America
>>>>
>>>>
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>> than one
>>>> million members to fund the grassroots organizing and training
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