[Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous
E. Wayne Johnson
ewj at pigs.ag
Sun Aug 16 13:36:40 CDT 2009
Laurie,
Please define "fascist" so that I can understand what you mean when you use
this word. Orwell said fascist has no meaning at all. For some
"fascist" is
a synonym for "authoritarian"--- there are other meanings, and Mussolini
and the Italian economists certainly did not intend for "fascist" to be
used in
a negative context. Many of the people I communicate with regularly
would consider
both Obama and McCain to be fascists. I suspect that your meaning is
different.
I have quit using the word fascist myself because I was too oft
misunderstood.
In China the language changes every few hundred yards in Gen. 11 style.
I have no problem
with your private definitions of words but if we are to understand each
other we
must have some definition of terms.
Wayne
On 8/16/2009 11:06 AM, LAURIE SOLOMON wrote:
> It very well maybe to their interests Carl; but I know from personal
> experience as indicated and supported by the reactions of people to many of
> the positions I take on this and other lists (some of which are made up of
> fellow members of the choir allegedly) that in fact my views tend to be out
> of step with the mass of my fellow citizens. I do find it difficult to see
> how it would be to the corporate media's interest to convince me that the
> mass of my fellow citizens are proto-fascists; and in point of fact, the
> corporate media deliberately attempts to convince me and others that the
> opposite is the case and true (i.e., the mass of my fellow citizens are
> decent upstanding respectable and responsible human being and are even more
> so than the citizens of any other country; it is the deviant, irresponsible,
> minority of criminal extremists and terrorists that do not accept and
> conform to establishment ways that are the crazies and proto-fascists).
>
> Moreover, I do not believe that the masses are proto-fascist; I think that
> under the surface, they are real live full blown fascists - no "proto" about
> it. And of course, I recognize that there are and always be some who do not
> fit the characterization. Some of these may be visibly fascist; and some
> may not be fascist in any way shape or fashion. My argument is not to what
> degree any given individual fits the characterization; it is a statement as
> to the national character in general as it has revealed itself when push
> comes to shove and some threat or hardship exists. The "my country right or
> wrong attitude" that underlies everything that this country does and which
> the people tacitly or overtly support for the most part from the very
> beginnings of the country and even before during the colonial period. It is
> the reluctance to stand out from the crowd and take actual steps that put
> one's self and future at risk in order to oppose informal and formal, covert
> and overt, institutional and non-institutional intolerance, bigotry, racism,
> ethnic prejudices, class biases, etc. and support all non-conformity, all
> diversity, the interests and welfare of those who are not like us in ways
> aside from only talk and throwing money at things.
>
> What I am suggesting is that the "Man in the Gray Flannel Suit" and the
> "Ugly American" still exist and still characterize the attitudes, beliefs,
> and values of Americans - elites and masses alike just as they have in the
> past. It is this that supplies the audiences for the talk radio commentators
> like Lou Dobbs, Hannity, Beck, et al of today and the Father Caughlins,
> Walter Winchels, and Drew Pearsons of yesterday and creates the popular
> demand that keeps them on the air and attracts corporate advertisers and
> support. If they did not have a significantly large audience or demand for
> what they were putting out, the corporate interests would turn their
> attention and support on those that do and engage in using and manipulating
> them for the corporate interests. To deny or ignore the size and
> pervasiveness of this popular following and demand is to act foolishly. Not
> to recognize that those who oppose such commentators and what they have to
> say are in the minority and a minority that is not all that effective is
> stupid and possibly delusional.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net
> [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C. G.
> Estabrook
> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 9:26 AM
> To: LAURIE SOLOMON
> Cc: 'Peace-discuss List'
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous
>
> I think it's to the interest of the corporate media to convince you that
> your
> views are unusual, and that the mass of your fellow citizens are
> proto-fascists.
>
> I don't think they are. I've not infrequently had people say to me, "I agree
> with what you say on News from Neptune, but I thought that I was practically
> the
> only one who thought that way." --CGE
>
>
> LAURIE SOLOMON wrote:
>
>> Who says I was? I am sure that I am not totally exempt and what
>>
> exemptions I
>
>> have may come from a set of more or less than ordinary - if not unique -
>> biographically determined experience or history. This history may not
>>
> have
>
>> significantly altered the nature of my character but it did effect the
>> content. In short I hate and am prejudiced against different people than
>> them and maybe most other Americans, my enemies are different than theirs
>>
> and
>
>> maybe most other Americans , my fears are different than theirs and maybe
>> most other Americans, etc.
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: C. G. Estabrook
>> [mailto:galliher at illinois.edu] Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 9:43 PM To:
>> LAURIE SOLOMON Cc: 'unionyes'; 'Peace-discuss List' Subject: Re:
>> [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous
>>
>> How were you able to escape these defects?
>>
>>
>> LAURIE SOLOMON wrote:
>>
>>> Very simply and to the point the people of the U.S. , for the most part,
>>>
>> are
>>
>>> and have been inherently all the things that Dobbs, Beck, Hannity,
>>>
>> Limbaugh
>>
>>> et al stand for. They comprise a natural audience for these commentators
>>>
>> and
>>
>>> those like them and, therefore, represent a significant demand for their
>>>
>> type
>>
>>> of commentary, which can be denied and ignored at one's own peril.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To elaborate:
>>>
>>> If anything these commentators are catering to the inherent racism,
>>> intolerance, ethnic bigotry, religious prejudices, social Dawinian
>>>
>> biases,
>>
>>> fearfulness, desires for conformity, love of violence, etc. that is part
>>>
>> and
>>
>>> parcel of America and its people. The people already have these traits
>>>
>> and
>>
>>> have no need for corporations or the corporate establishment to instill,
>>> encourage, or bring out such attitudes and values since they pre-existed
>>>
>> the
>>
>>> rise of corporations in the US and of corporate America. Hence, they are
>>>
>> not
>>
>>> the creatures of corporate power, money or spin. To be sure,
>>>
> contemporary
>
>>> corporations make use of the existence of these attitudes and values for
>>> their own purposes -- often to maintain control over the workings of the
>>> society so that it works in their interests -- whenever possible.
>>>
> However,
>
>>> the corporate establishment is not the source of these attitudes and
>>>
>> values.
>>
>>> Hence there exists a significantly large native group who hold these and
>>> similar values, beliefs, and attitudes which make up a natural audience
>>>
>> for
>>
>>> the Dobbs. Becks et al which create a demand for what Dobbs, beck et al
>>>
>> are
>>
>>> giving them. To deny this or to minimize it is to play ostrich and stick
>>>
>
>
>>> one's head in the ground.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* unionyes [mailto:unionyes at ameritech.net] *Sent:* Saturday, August
>>>
>> 15,
>>
>>> 2009 8:20 PM *To:* Peace-discuss List; LAURIE SOLOMON *Subject:* Re:
>>> [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And your point Laurie in 50 words or less ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> David J.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> P.S. I am NOT trying to be " flippant " or disrespectfull, becaue I
>>>
> truely
>
>>> respect your opinion and knowldge ~!
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> *From:* LAURIE SOLOMON<mailto:LAURIE at ADVANCENET.NET>
>>>
>>> *To:* 'unionyes'<mailto:unionyes at ameritech.net>
>>>
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 15, 2009 8:12 PM
>>>
>>> *Subject:* RE: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I guess that may be where we disagree; I think that there is a tendency
>>>
> to
>
>>> give too little credence to the fact that there is this demand and that
>>>
> it
>
>>> comes from a significant and large segment of the U.S. public who may be
>>> guided by corporate spin bought by corporate money but which nonetheless
>>>
>
>
>>> represent and embodies some very fundamental values and beliefs that are
>>> actually deeply held by a large number of the American public and masses.
>>>
>
>
>>> American racism, ethnic and religious prejudice, cultural biases against
>>> intellectual as opposed to practical education, and fear and hatred of
>>>
>> new
>>
>>> immigrants and people from other countries, intolerance, bigotry, and
>>>
>> demand
>>
>>> for conformity are somethings that preexisted the rise of corporations in
>>>
>
>
>>> America or corporate America. The corporate establishment with its power
>>>
>> and
>>
>>> wealth has been able to use these characteristics of the American public
>>>
>> to
>>
>>> their advantage very effectively in modern times; but it is not the
>>>
>> source,
>>
>>> cause, or grounds for said attitudes, values, or love of violence toward
>>> other living creatures and properties. As was once said by Stockley
>>> Carmicheal, I believe, "Violence is as American as Apple Pie." I would
>>>
>> add
>>
>>> that so is lawlessness, intolerance, prejudice, conformity, as well as
>>> notions of racial, ethnic, and religious supremacy, as American as apple
>>>
>
>
>>> pie. They all have roots that pre-date the rise of American corporations
>>>
>> and
>>
>>> are part of our cultural and psychological heritage.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* unionyes [mailto:unionyes at ameritech.net] *Sent:* Saturday, August
>>>
>> 15,
>>
>>> 2009 3:05 PM *To:* LAURIE SOLOMON *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou
>>> Dobbs is dangerous
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It's not so much that ; Lou Dobbs, Rush Limbaugh, etc., have a demand for
>>>
>
>
>>> their shows from a large segment of the U.S. public, but instead is a
>>> function of what the corporate advertisers, the rest of corporate america
>>>
>> and
>>
>>> the wealthy right-wing foundations want and will pay for !
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> David J.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> *From:* LAURIE SOLOMON<mailto:LAURIE at ADVANCENET.NET>
>>>
>>> *To:* 'Neil Parthun'<mailto:lennybrucefan at gmail.com> ;
>>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>
> <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 15, 2009 10:36 AM
>>>
>>> *Subject:* RE: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Whether or not one is engaged in censorship in this case appears to
>>>
> depend
>
>> on
>>
>>> one's referent level being addressed. Your point about Lou Dobbs, the
>>> person, may have some merit vis-à-vis the difference between censorship
>>>
>> and
>>
>>> access to the exulted platform of radio& TV; however if you move the
>>>
>> level
>>
>>> of reference up to the radio/TV station level, then one might be seen as
>>> engaging in the censorship of the station and its broadcast content.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> While no one guarantees the right to have a nationally televised show, no
>>>
>> one
>>
>>> guarantees anyone the right to prevent someone from having such a show
>>>
> or,
>
>>> for that matter prevents someone from having such a show. In the case of
>>>
>
>
>>> radio/TV, the air waves allegedly belong to the public to license to
>>>
>> actors
>>
>>> for use. The radio/TV stations and networks are among those actors; and
>>> within legally prescribed restrictions they are free to air whatever
>>>
>> content
>>
>>> they see fit, independent of what the public or any portion of the
>>>
> public
>
>>> might desire although in this country that decision is driven by the
>>>
>> market
>>
>>> (audience share and advertising money). Obviously, if one wants to alter
>>>
>> the
>>
>>> legal restrictions, one needs to go through the process of changing the
>>> legal framework , statutes, and administrative rules pertaining to the
>>> conditions of licensing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If one moves up a level to the ownership and control over the air waves,
>>> which belong legally to the public, then I am afraid that those who wish
>>>
>> to
>>
>>> see Dobbs shut down are going to lose for now and in the near future
>>>
> since
>
>>> they do not compose a majority of the public -- or enough to force a
>>>
> change
>
>> in
>>
>>> the licensing requirements for the stations and their personnel as to the
>>>
>
>
>>> sorts of content that they can air and when. Like the other right-wing
>>>
>> talk
>>
>>> commentators, his station and he appear to have strong national following
>>>
>
>
>>> that support and demand him be given air time and are willing to put
>>>
> their
>
>>> money where their mouths are. That cannot be said for the progressives,
>>>
>> the
>>
>>> left, or even the moderate reformers. If they comprised a significantly
>>> large population and if each contributed $5 or $10 each per year for
>>>
>> purposes
>>
>>> of buying advertising on the stations that carry Dobbs, they could
>>>
>> probably
>>
>>> use that as leverage to get the stations to either reel him and other in
>>>
>> or
>>
>>> take them off the air. But it seems that the progressives, the left,
>>>
>> liberal
>>
>>> and moderate reformers would rather hold on to their money or spend it
>>> elsewhere and exercise their lungs shouting and crying about him and his
>>> content instead.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net
>>> [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] *On Behalf Of *Neil
>>>
>> Parthun
>>
>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 14, 2009 10:13 PM *To:* C.G.Estabrook *Cc:*
>>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou
>>>
>> Dobbs
>>
>>> is dangerous
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Banning speech and requesting that such speech does not have a
>>>
>> hyper-exulted
>>
>>> platform to amplify it are two very different things.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nobody is saying Lou Dobbs doesn't have a right to say whatever he wants.
>>>
>> He
>>
>>> has that right. However, no person is guaranteed the right to have a
>>> nationally televised show to promote their views and perspectives on any
>>> topic.
>>>
>>> Solidarity,
>>>
>>> -N.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Neil Parthun
>>>
>>> IEA Region 9 Grassroots Political Activist
>>>
>>> Writer/Facilitator for Champaign-Urbana Public i
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Early in life I had learned that if you want something, you had better
>>>
>> make
>>
>>> some noise." - Malcolm X
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing
>>>
> list
>
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>>> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>
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