[Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous
LAURIE SOLOMON
LAURIE at ADVANCENET.NET
Sun Aug 16 11:06:53 CDT 2009
It very well maybe to their interests Carl; but I know from personal
experience as indicated and supported by the reactions of people to many of
the positions I take on this and other lists (some of which are made up of
fellow members of the choir allegedly) that in fact my views tend to be out
of step with the mass of my fellow citizens. I do find it difficult to see
how it would be to the corporate media's interest to convince me that the
mass of my fellow citizens are proto-fascists; and in point of fact, the
corporate media deliberately attempts to convince me and others that the
opposite is the case and true (i.e., the mass of my fellow citizens are
decent upstanding respectable and responsible human being and are even more
so than the citizens of any other country; it is the deviant, irresponsible,
minority of criminal extremists and terrorists that do not accept and
conform to establishment ways that are the crazies and proto-fascists).
Moreover, I do not believe that the masses are proto-fascist; I think that
under the surface, they are real live full blown fascists - no "proto" about
it. And of course, I recognize that there are and always be some who do not
fit the characterization. Some of these may be visibly fascist; and some
may not be fascist in any way shape or fashion. My argument is not to what
degree any given individual fits the characterization; it is a statement as
to the national character in general as it has revealed itself when push
comes to shove and some threat or hardship exists. The "my country right or
wrong attitude" that underlies everything that this country does and which
the people tacitly or overtly support for the most part from the very
beginnings of the country and even before during the colonial period. It is
the reluctance to stand out from the crowd and take actual steps that put
one's self and future at risk in order to oppose informal and formal, covert
and overt, institutional and non-institutional intolerance, bigotry, racism,
ethnic prejudices, class biases, etc. and support all non-conformity, all
diversity, the interests and welfare of those who are not like us in ways
aside from only talk and throwing money at things.
What I am suggesting is that the "Man in the Gray Flannel Suit" and the
"Ugly American" still exist and still characterize the attitudes, beliefs,
and values of Americans - elites and masses alike just as they have in the
past. It is this that supplies the audiences for the talk radio commentators
like Lou Dobbs, Hannity, Beck, et al of today and the Father Caughlins,
Walter Winchels, and Drew Pearsons of yesterday and creates the popular
demand that keeps them on the air and attracts corporate advertisers and
support. If they did not have a significantly large audience or demand for
what they were putting out, the corporate interests would turn their
attention and support on those that do and engage in using and manipulating
them for the corporate interests. To deny or ignore the size and
pervasiveness of this popular following and demand is to act foolishly. Not
to recognize that those who oppose such commentators and what they have to
say are in the minority and a minority that is not all that effective is
stupid and possibly delusional.
-----Original Message-----
From: peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net
[mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C. G.
Estabrook
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 9:26 AM
To: LAURIE SOLOMON
Cc: 'Peace-discuss List'
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous
I think it's to the interest of the corporate media to convince you that
your
views are unusual, and that the mass of your fellow citizens are
proto-fascists.
I don't think they are. I've not infrequently had people say to me, "I agree
with what you say on News from Neptune, but I thought that I was practically
the
only one who thought that way." --CGE
LAURIE SOLOMON wrote:
> Who says I was? I am sure that I am not totally exempt and what
exemptions I
> have may come from a set of more or less than ordinary - if not unique -
> biographically determined experience or history. This history may not
have
> significantly altered the nature of my character but it did effect the
> content. In short I hate and am prejudiced against different people than
> them and maybe most other Americans, my enemies are different than theirs
and
> maybe most other Americans , my fears are different than theirs and maybe
> most other Americans, etc.
>
> -----Original Message----- From: C. G. Estabrook
> [mailto:galliher at illinois.edu] Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 9:43 PM To:
> LAURIE SOLOMON Cc: 'unionyes'; 'Peace-discuss List' Subject: Re:
> [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous
>
> How were you able to escape these defects?
>
>
> LAURIE SOLOMON wrote:
>> Very simply and to the point the people of the U.S. , for the most part,
> are
>> and have been inherently all the things that Dobbs, Beck, Hannity,
> Limbaugh
>> et al stand for. They comprise a natural audience for these commentators
> and
>> those like them and, therefore, represent a significant demand for their
> type
>> of commentary, which can be denied and ignored at one’s own peril.
>>
>>
>>
>> To elaborate:
>>
>> If anything these commentators are catering to the inherent racism,
>> intolerance, ethnic bigotry, religious prejudices, social Dawinian
> biases,
>> fearfulness, desires for conformity, love of violence, etc. that is part
> and
>> parcel of America and its people. The people already have these traits
> and
>> have no need for corporations or the corporate establishment to instill,
>> encourage, or bring out such attitudes and values since they pre-existed
> the
>> rise of corporations in the US and of corporate America. Hence, they are
> not
>> the creatures of corporate power, money or spin. To be sure,
contemporary
>> corporations make use of the existence of these attitudes and values for
>> their own purposes – often to maintain control over the workings of the
>> society so that it works in their interests – whenever possible.
However,
>> the corporate establishment is not the source of these attitudes and
> values.
>> Hence there exists a significantly large native group who hold these and
>> similar values, beliefs, and attitudes which make up a natural audience
> for
>> the Dobbs. Becks et al which create a demand for what Dobbs, beck et al
> are
>> giving them. To deny this or to minimize it is to play ostrich and stick
>> one’s head in the ground.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* unionyes [mailto:unionyes at ameritech.net] *Sent:* Saturday, August
> 15,
>> 2009 8:20 PM *To:* Peace-discuss List; LAURIE SOLOMON *Subject:* Re:
>> [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous
>>
>>
>>
>> And your point Laurie in 50 words or less ?
>>
>>
>>
>> David J.
>>
>>
>>
>> P.S. I am NOT trying to be " flippant " or disrespectfull, becaue I
truely
>> respect your opinion and knowldge ~!
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> *From:* LAURIE SOLOMON <mailto:LAURIE at ADVANCENET.NET>
>>
>> *To:* 'unionyes' <mailto:unionyes at ameritech.net>
>>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 15, 2009 8:12 PM
>>
>> *Subject:* RE: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous
>>
>>
>>
>> I guess that may be where we disagree; I think that there is a tendency
to
>> give too little credence to the fact that there is this demand and that
it
>> comes from a significant and large segment of the U.S. public who may be
>> guided by corporate spin bought by corporate money but which nonetheless
>> represent and embodies some very fundamental values and beliefs that are
>> actually deeply held by a large number of the American public and masses.
>> American racism, ethnic and religious prejudice, cultural biases against
>> intellectual as opposed to practical education, and fear and hatred of
> new
>> immigrants and people from other countries, intolerance, bigotry, and
> demand
>> for conformity are somethings that preexisted the rise of corporations in
>> America or corporate America. The corporate establishment with its power
> and
>> wealth has been able to use these characteristics of the American public
> to
>> their advantage very effectively in modern times; but it is not the
> source,
>> cause, or grounds for said attitudes, values, or love of violence toward
>> other living creatures and properties. As was once said by Stockley
>> Carmicheal, I believe, “Violence is as American as Apple Pie.” I would
> add
>> that so is lawlessness, intolerance, prejudice, conformity, as well as
>> notions of racial, ethnic, and religious supremacy, as American as apple
>> pie. They all have roots that pre-date the rise of American corporations
> and
>> are part of our cultural and psychological heritage.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* unionyes [mailto:unionyes at ameritech.net] *Sent:* Saturday, August
> 15,
>> 2009 3:05 PM *To:* LAURIE SOLOMON *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou
>> Dobbs is dangerous
>>
>>
>>
>> It's not so much that ; Lou Dobbs, Rush Limbaugh, etc., have a demand for
>> their shows from a large segment of the U.S. public, but instead is a
>> function of what the corporate advertisers, the rest of corporate america
> and
>> the wealthy right-wing foundations want and will pay for !
>>
>>
>>
>> David J.
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> *From:* LAURIE SOLOMON <mailto:LAURIE at ADVANCENET.NET>
>>
>> *To:* 'Neil Parthun' <mailto:lennybrucefan at gmail.com> ;
>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 15, 2009 10:36 AM
>>
>> *Subject:* RE: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous
>>
>>
>>
>> Whether or not one is engaged in censorship in this case appears to
depend
> on
>> one’s referent level being addressed. Your point about Lou Dobbs, the
>> person, may have some merit vis-à-vis the difference between censorship
> and
>> access to the exulted platform of radio & TV; however if you move the
> level
>> of reference up to the radio/TV station level, then one might be seen as
>> engaging in the censorship of the station and its broadcast content.
>>
>>
>>
>> While no one guarantees the right to have a nationally televised show, no
> one
>> guarantees anyone the right to prevent someone from having such a show
or,
>> for that matter prevents someone from having such a show. In the case of
>> radio/TV, the air waves allegedly belong to the public to license to
> actors
>> for use. The radio/TV stations and networks are among those actors; and
>> within legally prescribed restrictions they are free to air whatever
> content
>> they see fit, independent of what the public or any portion of the
public
>> might desire although in this country that decision is driven by the
> market
>> (audience share and advertising money). Obviously, if one wants to alter
> the
>> legal restrictions, one needs to go through the process of changing the
>> legal framework , statutes, and administrative rules pertaining to the
>> conditions of licensing.
>>
>>
>>
>> If one moves up a level to the ownership and control over the air waves,
>> which belong legally to the public, then I am afraid that those who wish
> to
>> see Dobbs shut down are going to lose for now and in the near future
since
>> they do not compose a majority of the public – or enough to force a
change
> in
>> the licensing requirements for the stations and their personnel as to the
>> sorts of content that they can air and when. Like the other right-wing
> talk
>> commentators, his station and he appear to have strong national following
>> that support and demand him be given air time and are willing to put
their
>> money where their mouths are. That cannot be said for the progressives,
> the
>> left, or even the moderate reformers. If they comprised a significantly
>> large population and if each contributed $5 or $10 each per year for
> purposes
>> of buying advertising on the stations that carry Dobbs, they could
> probably
>> use that as leverage to get the stations to either reel him and other in
> or
>> take them off the air. But it seems that the progressives, the left,
> liberal
>> and moderate reformers would rather hold on to their money or spend it
>> elsewhere and exercise their lungs shouting and crying about him and his
>> content instead.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net
>> [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] *On Behalf Of *Neil
> Parthun
>> *Sent:* Friday, August 14, 2009 10:13 PM *To:* C.G.Estabrook *Cc:*
>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou
> Dobbs
>> is dangerous
>>
>>
>>
>> Banning speech and requesting that such speech does not have a
> hyper-exulted
>> platform to amplify it are two very different things.
>>
>>
>>
>> Nobody is saying Lou Dobbs doesn't have a right to say whatever he wants.
> He
>> has that right. However, no person is guaranteed the right to have a
>> nationally televised show to promote their views and perspectives on any
>> topic.
>>
>> Solidarity,
>>
>> -N.
>>
>>
>>
>> Neil Parthun
>>
>> IEA Region 9 Grassroots Political Activist
>>
>> Writer/Facilitator for Champaign-Urbana Public i
>>
>>
>>
>> "Early in life I had learned that if you want something, you had better
> make
>> some noise." - Malcolm X
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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