[Peace-discuss] Fw: We're unstoppable
E. Wayne Johnson
ewj at pigs.ag
Thu Aug 20 07:15:32 CDT 2009
no i dont know the source...it came to me second-hand and i found it
amusing.
dave johnson did some research on it. i think that both sides are wrong.
On 8/19/2009 1:31 PM, Ricky Baldwin wrote:
> As usual, Wayne, I think there is good and bad in what you say...
>
> --- On *Tue, 8/18/09, E. Wayne Johnson /<ewj at pigs.ag>/* wrote:
>
> Ricky, you can google out a verification as easily as I can. I
> dont think
> the allegations are untrue but I chuckle at the rhetoric on both
> sides.
>
>
> [...Well, Wayne, I assumed you KNEW the source. But if you don't,
> or don't want to share it because it's too crackpot-ish, then it
> certainly lessens my desire to read your future posts. And as for
> it being "untrue," that isn't the whole question is it? Not even
> half. The question, as I alluded, is how distorted this rendition
> is. Very, as it turns out from the footage available, which is
> far from clear about how this started but pretty clear that this
> account is ... you guessed it ... nutso!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqpfU_AC7Ls&NR=1 - RB...]
>
>
> I am convinced that the US health care delivery system is
> disgracefully Awful,
> and I would compare those who manage it quite unfavourably with
> such nobilities as
> wolves, buzzards, and maggots.
>
> The technological level is good but there are numerous glaring
> deficiencies in
> what is being delivered. There are huge problems with the way the
> delivery
> is done.
>
>
> [ ... Certainly true, as far as it goes. ...]
>
>
> Americans are being held hostage by the medical-pharmaceutical
> legal-regulatory industrial complex, and most Americans are so
> deluded and unaware
> that they hardly notice how badly and disgracefully they are being
> ripped off.
>
>
> [...I don't think folks don't notice they're being ripped off.
> Quite the contrary. Millions of people also happen to notice that
> they aren't being served by this "good" technology. My question
> is, what "good" is it to me and my family if we don't have access
> to it? There seems to be an assumption among many scientists, for
> example, that a new cure is inherently good. I have had the
> pleasure of meeting a number of others who are more thoughtful,
> however, whose research focusses specifically on technology that
> poor people and poor countries can afford - new cheap ways to
> ensure clean water, etc.
>
> I also think your aversion to regulations may be getting in the
> way of clear vision. Sure there are ways in which regulations are
> unreasonable and even repressive - the government that issues them
> being far too responsive to the interests of the upper classes and
> too little to the rest of us - but there are also ways in which
> regulations protect people from snake oil salesmen and the like.
> There's an overgeneralization I believe I am picking up from this
> list at times that 'everybody is smart enough to make up their own
> minds' or words to that effect. True, of course, in most cases,
> but as a universal it is embarrassingly obvious nonsense. I
> happen to have older relatives, for example, who are the constant
> the prey of hucksters of various sorts. I shudder to think of
> their fate if they could get their health insurance to pay for
> magnets in their shoes or various toxic wastes to be taken
> internally as a cure for very serious illnesses. Now THERE's a
> program of corporate welfare for you!
>
> I certainly support people's rights to seek alternatives, but in
> my experience at least most people do not have the time or the
> resources to research such things. My mother could never figure
> out the Internet, for example, and my grandmother doesn't know
> what it is. The library in their town wouldn't help at all. This
> would be fine, and they would simply not have to avail themselves
> of 'alternative' cures - provided they could tell which were
> 'alternative' and which were simply 'innovations'. But as we all
> should know from experience or at least reports of telemarketers
> pushing sweet-sounding deals for absolute horse hockey, the
> much-touted "free markets" are shark-infested waters where the
> weak do not have an equal chance.
>
> Do I assert that there in't hucksterism in the current systm? Not
> at all. But as bad as it already is, I sure wouldn't like to see
> the leash come off. ...]
>
>
> Americans are afraid to die, terrified in fact, and to one with a
> "sick" sense of humour, its
> simply hilarious to see them in action.
>
>
> [ ... I suppose you get a really good belly laugh at someone dying
> of colon cancer. Ever seen that? There are also lots of ways
> people can suffer dramaticaly without dying, especially without
> health care. Are those just as funny, or is it just slow painful
> death? ...]
>
>
> I am constantly reminded of Tom Woods's classic statement about
> the Stupid Party (clearly the Dems)
> and the Evil Party (clearly the Republicans), and Bipartisanship
> being when they get together in cooperation and
> do something that is truly Stupid and Evil. It is quite a circus
> seeing the two sides of this fiasco turning
> similar rhetoric and tactics on one another. They really aint so
> much different and quite frankly I dont
> see either side working for anything that could remotely be
> identified as any sort of genuine reform.
> To use a worn out analogy, it's like rearranging the deck chairs
> on the Titanic.
>
>
> [... You had me until that last part, Wayne. Stupid Party and
> Evil Party, maybe, but there *is* a difference if you're on the
> receiving end of such things as low wages, illness and inadequate
> health care options. For example, the Dems often raise the
> minimum wage. Not enough of course, and I'd agree there are
> better rways to solve the problems of poverty if I had my wishes -
> but I don't - and if you're trying to support a family on that
> wage, maybe even depending upon those leftovers when they close
> the kitchen at McDonald's to feed everybody supper, then, let me
> just tell you if you don't know: that little raise goes a helluva
> long way!
>
> I'll just reiterate here, in case it gets lost in translation: I'm
> for single-payer, not Obama's plan. But if the alternative is the
> rightwingers' plan, I'll take Obama's. ...]
>
>
> I would favour a cooperative-based system
>
> [... Sounds good in principle, of course. I'm not convinced the
> reality wouldn't be dominated by the same market-bully interests
> that parasitize our current system. A co-op based economy is a
> goal well worth working toward - e.g. small local credit unions
> instead of too-big-to-fail corporate predators - but they have to
> be true co-ops, not fronts for corporate interests. The
> transition would be very important. ...]
>
>
> with dramatically reduced regulations
>
>
> [... I think your blindspot is showing again. The problem isn't
> the *number* of regulations. The problem is *who* the regulations
> serve, which is a mixed bag in my opinion. ...]
>
>
> dramatically increased
> consumer education and transparency,
>
> [... Agreed. This is important regardless of other reforms. Many
> of our doctors don't like to give out information, as if it
> weakens them somehow - and of course it does, if it's power they
> like. For example, we were skeptical about the new fad pushing
> vaccinations for chicken pox, apparently "a potentially dangerous
> disease" now! But we try to be open-minded. Q: What is the risk
> of the vaccine? A: Minimal. Q: But how much? A: Minimal. Q:
> What are the odds of any serious problems from chicken pox,
> really? A: It can happen. Q: Yes, but how likely is it? A: Some
> people have died. ... Not the most helpful. And the famous
> Internet isn't much better, all full of anecdotal evidence, wild
> claims and more evasive answers. ... p.s. recent articles in the
> media suggest the medical industry often doesn't concern itself
> with the low-level health concerns many peopl have. Not so in thi
> scse, for sure. Just the opposite. ...]
>
> and a complete destruction of the predatory tort system
>
> [ ... And when my grandmother is victimized by some quack with a
> pharmaceutical sugar daddy, you propose that she simply lose what
> little she has left trying to find a cure for his cure? ...]
>
> and massive increases
> in recruitment of personnel into the medical field.
>
> [ ... My sister and other family and friends are in medicine. My
> view is that the problem isn't lack of recruitment. The problem
> is the working conditions of the lowest on the totem pole of the
> work. Hospitals like to cut staff, increase workload without
> additional pay, play fast and loose with people's hours in a
> completely inhumane manner, etc. The Heartland Human Services
> two-year strike turned lockout in Effingham, and the local County
> Nursing Home, are also example of the crappy treatment of people
> we expect to do the care. These are some of the actual reasons
> people do not remain in health care as a profession. ...]
>
>
> Licensure could be continued, but the penalties for lack of licensure
> would be non-existent. Medical care facilities could choose to
> have licensed or unlicensed practitioners, and it would
> be the responsibility of the consumer to choose between whether to
> trust in a licensed quack or an oft more
> competent unlicensed quack. There are more ideas along this line.
>
>
> [... I think this is frankly fantasy, partly for the reasons I
> mentioned above. ...]
>
>
> Single-payer doesnt fix the real problems, it just increases the
> burden on the system.
>
>
> [ ... Single payer certainly doesn't fix all problems. But the
> actual figures suggest it would *reduce* the burden on the
> system. I suppose it can't be reiterated often enough: the
> massive overhead and waste in the current system can be eliminated
> by single-payer. There are problems with single-payer, which must
> be acknowledged. One of them is that the rich and powerful will
> always lobby for an opt out, and then to underfund the system,
> because they know they can do better on their own, damn the rest
> of us. In the US there are of course deluded individuals who
> identify with our aristocratic classes, who will often team up
> with them. This is one of the eternal problems of democracy
> attempting to coexist with capitalism, in my opinion. Many people
> who have health care now fear that any national plan would limit
> their options, which is not necessarily true of course. Many
> people also fear anything smeared as "socialism" because they
> believe it is creeping atheism, which is also not necessarily true
> of course. But the main problem that single-payer faces is that
> powerful interests are arrayed against it and they have the PR
> budgets to get results. ...]
>
>
> I am suggesting a dramatic
> reduction in the medical care burden via a common-sense approach.
>
>
> [ ... I'm sorry, Wayne, but your suggestion - though I believe it
> is not without compassion - is an excellent example of why common
> sense is simply a myth in a complex context like this. I am
> skeptical of it in many contexts, but here it can be no bttr than
> a figure of speech. If it were real, I think, it would suggest
> something quite different. And since e.g. your honest, thoughtful
> approach and mine are worlds apart, well, the sense involved can't
> be all that "common." ...]
>
>
>
> On 8/18/2009 5:46 PM, Ricky Baldwin wrote:
>> Is there a source on this, Wayne? You see, the reason I want to
>> know is to assess the credibility of this reported event and
>> other allegations therein. That's important, because anybody can
>> make up anything. For example, in this email you forward below
>> the author - whoever that is - refers to the Obama Admin's health
>> care proposals as "socialist" (the baldest nonsense, no matter
>> whether you think the plan is good or not). Such rantings in my
>> opinion probably impugn the witness here substantially, but
>> since I don't actually know what happened at this event I would
>> like to keep an open mind.
>> However, this is already pretty difficult given this
>> characterization of support for the "socializing" health care as
>> originating with MoveOn and "hired thugs". As you may know Tim
>> Johnson's meeting locally in the library was quite different.
>> Supporters of the much-touted "public option" and the
>> much-maligned "single payer" idea were not "hired thugs" but
>> local community members dedicated to health care and organized by
>> excellent organizers - whether you agree with them or not.
>> Perhaps this did happen somewhere. We can't tell from this
>> anonymous report.
>> You may be right that purists on both sides are wrong, and maybe
>> if we had a beer at the White House or something we'd agree that
>> there is good and bad in the plan. The fact remains that in the
>> richest, most powerful country on earth millions of people are
>> without real health care options, most of them children and older
>> Americans, some of them AWARE-istas from way back and dedicated
>> individuals to the peace and social justice, others very good
>> people who may be dedicated to helping their fellow human beings
>> in other ways, or people who have worked hard their whole lives
>> only to be robbed of their health care and so on at the end.
>> Many will eventually die because of the simple neglect of their
>> society, perhaps after last-minute attempts to save their lives
>> at ERs across the nation - which the opponents of reform will
>> ultimately pay for along with the rest of us - but not as high a
>> price as those without health care.
>> I claim this is what this debate is ultimately about: what do we
>> value most, our creature comforts (SUVs, TVs - more sets than
>> people in the average home, according to Nielsen
>> http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/media_entertainment/more-than-half-the-homes-in-us-have-three-or-more-tvs/,
>> etc.), narrow political or ideological advantage, or our fellow
>> human beings.
>> Some high-minded folks on this list will likely claim I'm being
>> simplistic or disingenuous, but that's what it really comes down
>> to, no matter whose name's on the bill, who supports it, what
>> color their skin or electoral map fill, public or private,
>> perfect or imperfect: what will do the most good for the most
>> people? How can we get the most we can and make it stick?
>> I think that's probably single-payer, which it appears we won't
>> get this time (but we shouldn't give up), which the Obama plan
>> isn't of course. But consider this analogy: you're suddenly
>> homeless, but you have a job with an office. You can sleep
>> there, but you'd have to be out at 6am every weekday morning.
>> The building has toilets, and there's a gym where you can shower
>> (group shower - at 6:30am usually occupied by jocks and ROTC
>> recruits). You're unlikley to find better for six months or so,
>> but by then hopefully you can marshall your resources and try
>> again. OK, the analogy isn't perfect, but it's authentic and the
>> life lesson applies: you don't turn your nose up at options when
>> you're desperate, you get what you can and keep trying.
>> My 2c.
>> Ricky
>>
>> "Speak your mind even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn
>>
>> --- On *Tue, 8/18/09, E. Wayne Johnson /<ewj at pigs.ag>/* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: E. Wayne Johnson <ewj at pigs.ag>
>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Fw: We're unstoppable
>> To: "Jenifer Cartwright" <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: "Peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>> Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 5:01 PM
>>
>> This is an actual item I received today. I am convinced that
>> the groups on
>> both "sides" of the health care debate and debacle are in error.
>>
>> _*
>> Left-Wing THUGS Attack Americans Opposed to "ObamaCare*_
>> It's getting ugly out there. All across the country,
>> left-wing extremists are disrupting congressional town-hall
>> meetings
>> with venomous attacks on anyone who voices their objections
>> to Barack Obama's plans to socialize American health care.
>>
>> · At a town hall meeting with Rep. Kathy Castor in Tampa,
>> Florida, as she was introduced,
>> the reaction was overwhelmingly against her, with boos and
>> chants of "You work for us."
>> In the lobby, you could hear the counter of Planned
>> Parenthood representatives shouting,
>> "Healthcare Now." Shortly thereafter, violence erupted, where
>> three big "goons" came out
>> and started pushing and roughing up the people in line and in
>> the hallway, at one point
>> even using a chokehold on one of the people. Police officers
>> on the scene did nothing to
>> prevent the violence being perpetrated on these citizens
>> trying to exercise their free
>> speech rights -- citizens who far outnumbered those who were
>> allowed to stay.
>>
>> · At a town hall meeting with Rep. Russ Carnahan in St.
>> Louis, Missouri, police arrested six people for assaulting
>> constituents who
>> were opposed to the health care takeover. As reported
>> locally, "Kenneth Gladney, 38, a conservative activist from
>> St. Louis, said he
>> was attacked by some of those arrested as he handed out
>> yellow flags with 'Don't tread on me' printed on them. He
>> spoke to the
>> Post-Dispatch from the emergency room at St. John's Mercy
>> Medical Center, where he said he was awaiting treatment for
>> injuries
>> to his knee, back, elbow, shoulder and face. Gladney, who is
>> black, said one of his attackers, also a black man, used a
>> racial slur
>> against him before the attack."
>>
>> Many Representatives have announced they won't be holding any
>> town-hall meetings after seeing that their constituents are
>> OPPOSED
>> to the socialist "ObamaCare". We've got a plan to fight back
>> against these radical left-wingers. Barack Obama's
>> "Organizing for America" group is sending out
>> Alerts to get their people to come out to townhalls to shout
>> us down with "powerful voices". MoveOn.org has hired skilled
>> "grassroots
>> organizers" -- meaning, people like the union thugs in those
>> videos -- who are working at townhalls across the country to
>> give the impression
>> that there's ANY support for Obama's plans to socialize
>> health care in America. They've built new online tools to
>> track events
>> across the country -- and to make sure MoveOn members turn
>> out at each one.
>> They're raising hundreds of thousands of dollars to push
>> their far-left agenda, against the true grassroots uprising
>> we're witnessing in
>> America.
>>
>> WE'RE FIGHTING BACK -- but we need the help of patriotic
>> Americans like YOU to succeed!
>> Can you chip in a donation today to support our work?
>>
>> If the bullying tactics of the left-wing goons are successful
>> at suppressing the only true grassroots voices our senators
>> and representatives
>> hear over the recess, we'll have a hard time stopping the
>> socialist plans of Obama, Pelosi and Reid in September.
>> That's why we're getting the word out about Town Hall
>> meetings across the nation -- we've created a new ad for
>> television and radio,
>> we're sending millions of email to our members to fight back
>> with a strong town hall turnout, we're offering personalized
>> blast faxes to
>> every single member of Congress, and we're activating an
>> energized network of on-the-ground constituents who aren't
>> afraid to speak
>> out against ObamaCare and the bullying tactics of the Left.
>> This month could decide the future of health care in
>> America-and we're already one week in. If you've been sitting
>> on the sidelines,
>> now's the time
>>
>>
>> On 8/18/2009 3:07 PM, Jenifer Cartwright wrote:
>>> Definitely not just another Dem rubber stamp. Glad that
>>> Dean's still a staunch supporter of public option... and
>>> getting a lot of air play these days, even a bit on MSM.
>>> --Jenifer
>>>
>>> --- On *Tue, 8/18/09, Gov. Howard Dean, Democracy for
>>> America /<info at democracyforamerica.com>/* wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jenifer -
>>>
>>> Here's what I know: *When we work together, we're
>>> unstoppable*.
>>>
>>> As my brother Jim said yesterday, the media has it
>>> wrong. The campaign for the choice of a public health
>>> insurance option will be over only if we quit or we've
>>> won. That decision is ours to make. Not the media's
>>> decision - Not the insurance industry's decision - It's
>>> our decision.
>>>
>>> *We have the power and we're going to win.*
>>>
>>> Make no mistake, victory won't happen overnight. Just
>>> like President Obama's campaign for President, this
>>> campaign is a long haul. Congress returns in September
>>> for the final stretch to pass reform by the end of the
>>> year.
>>>
>>> We must have the resources to fuel this fight. If we
>>> raise $200,000 by Monday, we can hit back immediately.
>>> Congress will know we're not backing down in the face of
>>> pressure. We're standing up to get the job done.
>>>
>>> *CONTRIBUTE RIGHT NOW AND DELIVER THE RESOURCES TO WIN
>>> <http://dfa2.convio.net/site/R?i=sXzZXNDf2O4yompyP_Zlxg..>*
>>>
>>> Victory takes courage, conviction, and commitment. It
>>> takes you. The power to change America is in your hands.
>>> It always has been.
>>>
>>> Thank you, Jenifer, for everything you do to win.
>>>
>>> -Howard
>>>
>>> Governor Howard Dean, M.D.
>>> Founder, Democracy for America
>>>
>>>
>>> Democracy for America relies on you and the people-power
>>> of more than one million members to fund the grassroots
>>> organizing and training that delivers progressive change
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>>
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>
>
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