[Peace-discuss] Fw: We're unstoppable

Wed Aug 19 13:31:20 CDT 2009

As usual, Wayne, I think there is good and bad in what you say...

--- On Tue, 8/18/09, E. Wayne Johnson <ewj at pigs.ag> wrote:

Ricky, you can google out a verification as easily as I can.  I dont
think

the allegations are untrue but I chuckle at the rhetoric on both sides.

[...Well, Wayne, I assumed you KNEW the source.  But if you don't, or don't want to share it because it's too crackpot-ish, then it certainly lessens my desire to read your future posts.  And as for it being "untrue," that isn't the whole question is it?  Not even half.  The question, as I alluded, is how distorted this rendition is.  Very, as it turns out from the footage available, which is far from clear about how this started but pretty clear that this account is ... you guessed it ... nutso!  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqpfU_AC7Ls&NR=1 - RB...] 

I am convinced that the US health care delivery system is disgracefully
Awful,

and I would compare those who manage it quite unfavourably with such
nobilities as

wolves, buzzards, and maggots.

The technological level is good but there are numerous glaring
deficiencies in

what is being delivered.  There are huge problems with the way the
delivery

is done.   

[ ... Certainly true, as far as it goes. ...]

Americans are being held hostage by the
medical-pharmaceutical

legal-regulatory industrial complex, and most Americans are so deluded
and unaware

that they hardly notice how badly and disgracefully they are being
ripped off.

[...I don't think folks don't notice they're being ripped off.  Quite the contrary.  Millions of people also happen to notice that they aren't being served by this "good" technology.  My question is, what "good" is it to me and my family if we don't have access to it?  There seems to be an assumption among many scientists, for example, that a new cure is inherently good.  I have had the pleasure of meeting a number of others who are more thoughtful, however, whose research focusses specifically on technology that poor people and poor countries can afford - new cheap ways to ensure clean water, etc.

I also think your aversion to regulations may be getting in the way of clear vision.  Sure there are ways in which regulations are unreasonable and even repressive - the government that issues them being far too responsive to the interests of the upper classes and too little to the rest of us - but there are also ways in which regulations protect people from snake oil salesmen and the like.  There's an overgeneralization I believe I am picking up from this list at times that 'everybody is smart enough to make up their own minds' or words to that effect.  True, of course, in most cases, but as a universal it is embarrassingly obvious nonsense.  I happen to have older relatives, for example, who are the constant the prey of hucksters of various sorts.  I shudder to think of their fate if they could get their health insurance to pay for magnets in their shoes or various toxic wastes to be taken internally as a cure for very serious illnesses.  Now
 THERE's a program of corporate welfare for you!

I certainly support people's rights to seek alternatives, but in my experience at least most people do not have the time or the resources to research such things.  My mother could never figure out the Internet, for example, and my grandmother doesn't know what it is.  The library in their town wouldn't help at all.  This would be fine, and they would simply not have to avail themselves of 'alternative' cures - provided they could tell which were 'alternative' and which were simply 'innovations'.  But as we all should know from experience or at least reports of telemarketers pushing sweet-sounding deals for absolute horse hockey, the much-touted "free markets" are shark-infested waters where the weak do not have an equal chance. 

Do I assert that there in't hucksterism in the current systm?  Not at all.  But as bad as it already is, I sure wouldn't like to see the leash come off. ...]

Americans are afraid to die, terrified in fact, and to one with a
"sick" sense of humour, its

simply hilarious to see them in action.

[ ... I suppose you get a really good belly laugh at someone dying of colon cancer.  Ever seen that?  There are also lots of ways people can suffer dramaticaly without dying, especially without health care.  Are those just as funny, or is it just slow painful death? ...]

I am constantly reminded of Tom Woods's classic statement about the
Stupid Party (clearly the Dems)

and the Evil Party (clearly the Republicans), and Bipartisanship being
when they get together in cooperation and

do something that is truly Stupid and Evil.  It is quite a circus
seeing the two sides of this fiasco turning 

similar rhetoric and tactics on one another.  They really aint so much
different and quite frankly I dont

see either side working for anything that could remotely be identified
as any sort of genuine reform.

To use a worn out analogy, it's like rearranging the deck chairs on the
Titanic.

[... You had me until that last part, Wayne.  Stupid Party and Evil Party, maybe, but there *is* a difference if you're on the receiving end of such things as low wages, illness and inadequate health care options.  For example, the Dems often raise the minimum wage.  Not enough of course, and I'd agree there are better rways to solve the problems of poverty if I had my wishes - but I don't - and if you're trying to support a family on that wage, maybe even depending upon those leftovers when they close the kitchen at McDonald's to feed everybody supper, then, let me just tell you if you don't know: that little raise goes a helluva long way!

I'll just reiterate here, in case it gets lost in translation: I'm for single-payer, not Obama's plan.  But if the alternative is the rightwingers' plan, I'll take Obama's. ...]

I would favour a cooperative-based system 

[... Sounds good in principle, of course.  I'm not convinced the reality wouldn't be dominated by the same market-bully interests that parasitize our current system.  A co-op based economy is a goal well worth working toward - e.g. small local credit unions instead of too-big-to-fail corporate predators - but they have to be true co-ops, not fronts for corporate interests.  The transition would be very important. ...]

with dramatically reduced
regulations

[... I think your blindspot is showing again.  The problem isn't the *number* of regulations.  The problem is *who* the regulations serve, which is a mixed bag in my opinion.  ...]

 dramatically increased 

consumer education and transparency, 

[... Agreed.  This is important regardless of other reforms.  Many of our doctors don't like to give out information, as if it weakens them somehow - and of course it does, if it's power they like.  For example, we were skeptical about the new fad pushing vaccinations for chicken pox, apparently "a potentially dangerous disease" now!  But we try to be open-minded.  Q:  What is the risk of the vaccine?  A: Minimal.  Q: But how much?  A: Minimal.  Q: What are the odds of any serious problems from chicken pox, really?  A: It can happen.  Q: Yes, but how likely is it?  A: Some people have died.  ... Not the most helpful.  And the famous Internet isn't much better, all full of anecdotal evidence, wild claims and more evasive answers.  ... p.s. recent articles in the media suggest the medical industry often doesn't concern itself with the low-level health concerns many peopl have.  Not so in thi scse, for sure.  Just the opposite. ...]

and a complete destruction of the
predatory tort system

[ ... And when my grandmother is victimized by some quack with a pharmaceutical sugar daddy, you propose that she simply lose what little she has left trying to find a cure for his cure? ...]

 and massive increases

in recruitment of personnel into the medical field.  

[ ... My sister and other family and friends are in medicine.  My view is that the problem isn't lack of recruitment.  The problem is the working conditions of the lowest on the totem pole of the work.  Hospitals like to cut staff, increase workload without additional pay, play fast and loose with people's hours in a completely inhumane manner, etc.  The Heartland Human Services two-year strike turned lockout in Effingham, and the local County Nursing Home, are also example of the crappy treatment of people we expect to do the care.  These are some of the actual reasons people do not remain in health care as a profession. ...]

Licensure could be
continued, but the penalties for lack of licensure

would be non-existent.   Medical care facilities could choose to have
licensed or unlicensed practitioners, and it would

be the responsibility of the consumer to choose between whether to
trust in a licensed quack or an oft more

competent unlicensed quack.  There are more ideas along this line.

[... I think this is frankly fantasy, partly for the reasons I mentioned above. ...]

Single-payer doesnt fix the real problems, it just increases the burden
on the system.  

[ ... Single payer certainly doesn't fix all problems.  But the actual figures suggest it would *reduce* the burden on the system.  I suppose it can't be reiterated often enough: the massive overhead and waste in the current system can be eliminated by single-payer.  There are problems with single-payer, which must be acknowledged.  One of them is that the rich and powerful will always lobby for an opt out, and then to underfund the system, because they know they can do better on their own, damn the rest of us.  In the US there are of course deluded individuals who identify with our aristocratic classes, who will often team up with them.  This is one of the eternal problems of democracy attempting to coexist with capitalism, in my opinion.  Many people who have health care now fear that any national plan would limit their options, which is not necessarily true of course.  Many people also fear anything smeared as "socialism" because they believe
 it is creeping atheism, which is also not necessarily true of course.  But the main problem that single-payer faces is that powerful interests are arrayed against it and they have the PR budgets to get results. ...]

I am suggesting a dramatic

reduction in the medical care burden via a common-sense approach.  

[ ... I'm sorry, Wayne, but your suggestion - though I believe it is not without compassion - is an excellent example of why common sense is simply a myth in a complex context like this.  I am skeptical of it in many contexts, but here it can be no bttr than a figure of speech.  If it were real, I think, it would suggest something quite different.  And since e.g. your honest, thoughtful approach and mine are worlds apart, well, the sense involved can't be all that "common." ...]

On 8/18/2009 5:46 PM, Ricky Baldwin wrote:

        Is there a source on this, Wayne?  You see, the reason I
want to know is to assess the credibility of this reported event and
other allegations therein.  That's important, because anybody can make
up anything.  For example, in this email you forward below the author -
whoever that is - refers to the Obama Admin's health care proposals as
"socialist"  (the baldest nonsense, no matter whether you think the
plan is good or not).  Such rantings in my opinion probably impugn the
witness here substantially, but since I don't actually know what
happened at this event I would like to keep an open mind.

        However, this is already pretty difficult given this
characterization of support for the "socializing" health care as
originating with MoveOn and "hired thugs".  As you may know Tim
Johnson's meeting locally in the library was quite different. 
Supporters of the much-touted "public option" and the much-maligned
"single payer" idea were not "hired thugs" but local community members
dedicated to health care and organized by excellent organizers -
whether you agree with them or not.  Perhaps this did happen
somewhere.  We can't tell from this anonymous report.

        You may be right that purists on both sides are wrong, and
maybe if we had a beer at the White House or something we'd agree that
there is good and bad in the plan.  The fact remains that in the
richest, most powerful country on earth millions of people are without
real health care options, most of them children and older Americans,
some of them AWARE-istas from way back and dedicated individuals to the
peace and social justice, others very good people who may be dedicated
to helping their fellow human beings in other ways, or people who have
worked hard their whole lives only to be robbed of their health care
and so on at the end.

        Many will eventually die because of the simple neglect of
their society, perhaps after last-minute attempts to save their lives
at ERs across the nation - which the opponents of reform will
ultimately pay for along with the rest of us - but not as high a price
as those without health care.

        I claim this is what this debate is ultimately about: what
do we value most, our creature comforts (SUVs, TVs - more sets than
people in the average home, according to Nielsen http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/media_entertainment/more-than-half-the-homes-in-us-have-three-or-more-tvs/,
etc.), narrow political or ideological advantage, or our fellow human
beings.  

        Some high-minded folks on this list will likely claim I'm
being simplistic or disingenuous, but that's what it really comes down
to, no matter whose name's on the bill, who supports it, what color
their skin or electoral map fill, public or private, perfect or
imperfect: what will do the most good for the most people?  How can we
get the most we can and make it stick?

        I think that's probably single-payer, which it appears we
won't get this time (but we shouldn't give up), which the Obama plan
isn't of course.  But consider this analogy: you're suddenly homeless,
but you have a job with an office.  You can sleep there, but you'd have
to be out at 6am every weekday morning.  The building has toilets, and
there's a gym where you can shower (group shower - at 6:30am usually
occupied by jocks and ROTC recruits).  You're unlikley to find better
for six months or so, but by then hopefully you can marshall your
resources and try again.  OK, the analogy isn't perfect, but it's
authentic and the life lesson applies: you don't turn your nose up at
options when you're desperate, you get what you can and keep trying.

        My 2c.

Ricky

"Speak your mind even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn

--- On Tue, 8/18/09, E. Wayne Johnson <ewj at pigs.ag>
wrote:

From: E. Wayne Johnson <ewj at pigs.ag>

Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Fw: We're unstoppable

To: "Jenifer Cartwright" <jencart13 at yahoo.com>

Cc: "Peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>

Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 5:01 PM

          This is an actual item I received
today.  I am convinced that the groups on 

both "sides" of the health care debate and debacle are in error.

Left-Wing THUGS Attack Americans Opposed to "ObamaCare 

It's getting ugly out there. All across the country, left-wing
extremists are disrupting congressional town-hall meetings

with venomous attacks on anyone who voices their objections to Barack
Obama's plans to socialize American health care.

· At a town hall meeting with Rep. Kathy Castor in Tampa, Florida, as
she was introduced,

the reaction was overwhelmingly against her, with boos and chants of
"You work for us."

In the lobby, you could hear the counter of Planned Parenthood
representatives shouting,

"Healthcare Now." Shortly thereafter, violence erupted, where three big
"goons" came out

and started pushing and roughing up the people in line and in the
hallway, at one point

even using a chokehold on one of the people.  Police officers on the
scene did nothing to 

prevent the violence being perpetrated on these citizens trying to
exercise their free

speech rights -- citizens who far outnumbered those who were allowed to
stay.

· At a town hall meeting with Rep. Russ Carnahan in St. Louis,
Missouri, police arrested six people for assaulting constituents who

were opposed to the health care takeover. As reported locally, "Kenneth
Gladney, 38, a conservative activist from St. Louis, said he

was attacked by some of those arrested as he handed out yellow flags
with 'Don't tread on me' printed on them. He spoke to the

Post-Dispatch from the emergency room at St. John's Mercy Medical
Center, where he said he was awaiting treatment for injuries

to his knee, back, elbow, shoulder and face. Gladney, who is black,
said one of his attackers, also a black man, used a racial slur

against him before the attack." 

Many Representatives have announced they won't be holding any town-hall
meetings after seeing that their constituents are OPPOSED

to the socialist "ObamaCare".  We've got a plan to fight back against
these radical left-wingers. Barack Obama's "Organizing for America"
group is sending out

Alerts to get their people to come out to townhalls to shout us down
with "powerful voices". MoveOn.org has hired skilled "grassroots

organizers" -- meaning, people like the union thugs in those videos --
who are working at townhalls across the country to give the impression

that there's ANY support for Obama's plans to socialize health care in
America. They've built new online tools to track events

across the country -- and to make sure MoveOn members turn out at each
one.

They're raising hundreds of thousands of dollars to push their far-left
agenda, against the true grassroots uprising we're witnessing in

America.

WE'RE FIGHTING BACK -- but we need the help of patriotic Americans like
YOU to succeed!

Can you chip in a donation today to support our work?

If the bullying tactics of the left-wing goons are successful at
suppressing the only true grassroots voices our senators and
representatives

hear over the recess, we'll have a hard time stopping the socialist
plans of Obama, Pelosi and Reid in September.

That's why we're getting the word out about Town Hall meetings across
the nation -- we've created a new ad for television and radio,

we're sending millions of email to our members to fight back with a
strong town hall turnout, we're offering personalized blast faxes to

every single member of Congress, and we're activating an energized
network of on-the-ground constituents who aren't afraid to speak

out against ObamaCare and the bullying tactics of the Left.  This month
could decide the future of health care in America-and we're already one
week in. If you've been sitting on the sidelines,

now's the time

On 8/18/2009 3:07 PM, Jenifer Cartwright wrote:

                  Definitely not just another Dem rubber stamp.
Glad that Dean's still a staunch supporter of public option... and
getting a lot of air play these days, even a bit on MSM.
                   --Jenifer 

--- On Tue, 8/18/09, Gov. Howard Dean, Democracy for America <info at democracyforamerica.com>
wrote:

#yiv1802450143 #yiv130095858 #yiv1850833162 {
font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;background-color:#fff;margin:5px;}

                          Jenifer -

Here's what I know: When we work together, we're unstoppable.

As my brother Jim said yesterday, the media has it wrong. The campaign
for the choice of a public health insurance option will be over only if
we quit or we've won. That decision is ours to make. Not the media's
decision - Not the insurance industry's decision - It's our decision. 

                          We have the power and we're going to
win.

Make no mistake, victory won't happen overnight. Just like President
Obama's campaign for President, this campaign is a long haul. Congress
returns in September for the final stretch to pass reform by the end of
the year. 

We must have the resources to fuel this fight. If we raise $200,000 by
Monday, we can hit back immediately. Congress will know we're not
backing down in the face of pressure. We're standing up to get the job
done. 

                          CONTRIBUTE RIGHT NOW AND DELIVER THE
RESOURCES TO WIN 

Victory takes courage, conviction, and commitment. It takes you. The
power to change America is in your hands. It always has been. 

Thank you, Jenifer, for everything you do to win.

-Howard 

Governor Howard Dean, M.D.

Founder, Democracy for America  

                          Democracy for America relies on you and the
people-power of more than one million members to fund the grassroots
organizing and training that delivers progressive change on the issues
that matter. Please Contribute Today and support our
mission. 

                          Paid for by Democracy for
America, http://democracyforamerica.com/ and
not authorized by any candidate. Contributions to Democracy for America
are not deductible for federal income tax purposes. 

                          This message was sent to jencart13 at yahoo.com.
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