[Peace-discuss] Re: petition period has begun for next year's D and R primaries

Thu Aug 27 12:48:37 CDT 2009

On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 12:06:51PM -0500, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
> Amongst those for whom identity politics have replaced class politics --
> i.e., diversity (politics as etiquette) is all the more tenaciously insisted
> upon as a substitute for economic equality as a real political goal --
> voicing such opinions about homosexuality becomes a "hate crime," the worst
> delict in the liberal decalogue.

Carl,

This woman is (was?) openly calling for either homosexuality,
or homosexual sex, to be made *illegal*.  This isn't a question of
niceties of arguments over "identity politics", this is calling
for outright repression of a minority group under color of law,
under some legislature's definition of that group.  It should make
any self-respecting libertarian's blood boil.  And this is the
strongest you have to say about it?

Wayne,

Please say it ain't so.  Inviting Rosanna to retract her retraction
sounds as if you are asking her to repent of compassion.  Isn't that
what it amounts to?  Ugh.

> American society today seems to have a Victorian prudishness about the actual
> consideration of sexual morality, which is quite different from relegating
> the matter to the rather minor importance it deserves.

I agree with that.  In a just society this would be a non-issue.  But
it is not, since there is a long history in our society and others
of recognizing homosexuals as a distinct group, persecuting them,
and giving them reduced rights and protection under the law.
Seeking to change that status is a political process.  

And complaining, as you seem to be, that there should be no need for
such a political process -- as if "identity politics" were nothing but a
distraction -- simply acts to entrench the existing persecution.

It doesn't make the group labels irrelevant as one might hope,
since they're already out there -- not only in the minds of people,
but also in habits of communication, as Bob Naiman's example
of a few months ago showed beautifully.  (A verbal job offer in a
Protestant Northern Ireland factory gets spread by word of mouth
mostly to other Protestants, not uniformly across the local population,
even with no ill will on anyone's part.  Social networks aren't random graphs.)

And, of *course*, opposing persecution of less-privileged groups
should not mean that pursuing economic equality isn't also on the table.
(How many negatives in that?)

   Stuart

> But as a political matter we attribute far too much importance to it, 
> ignoring
> e.g. the wisdom of Gore Vidal from long ago,
>
> "Actually, there is no such thing as a homosexual person, any more than 
> there is
> such a thing as a heterosexual person. The words are adjectives describing
> sexual acts, not people ... The reason no one has yet been able to come up 
> with
> a good word to describe the homosexualist (sometimes known as gay, fag, 
> queer,
> etc.) is because he does not exist. The human race is divided into male and
> female. Many human beings enjoy sexual relations with their own sex, many 
> don't;
> many respond to both. This plurality is the fact of our nature and not 
> worth
> fretting about."  --"Sex Is Politics" (1979)
>
>
> E. Wayne Johnson wrote:
>> It's not clear to me what sort of standards for etiquette and language 
>> exist
>> for blogs and the internet.
>> Certainly the FCC ban on Carlin's "7 Words" doesnt apply, and one probably
>> can't write for the Rolling Stone or Wonkette without being well-versed in
>> punctuating ones remarks with a profusion of explicit calumnious 
>> metaphoric.
>> What bothers me most is the hypocrisy implicit in calling the expressed 
>> admonitions of a group "homophobic", "wacko", and "hate-mongering".   Some 
>> of
>> the so-called left liberals are the most likely to engage in intensely
>> disparaging and often obscene remarks about those who oppose their
>> immorality.  Isn't it "hate-mongering" to call someone a "hate-monger"?
>> Isn't it Wack to call someone a wacko?
>> If I lived in Ms. Pulido's district, I would be likely to vote for her, 
>> knowing that she understands the dangers of homosexuality and is therefore
>> more likely to favour measures that would tend to contain and extinguish
>> homosexuality rather than encourage it.
>> I would guess that those who engage in homosexual behaviour and those who
>> actively condone and promote homosexual behaviour would have a similar
>> response to any opposition to their ideas regardless of what descriptive
>> colloquialism is employed.
>> On 8/27/2009 8:55 AM, Ricky Baldwin wrote:
>>> Wayne,
>>> Are you endorsing these "fudge-packing" remarks in the original context?
>>> Ricky
>>> "Speak your mind even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn
>>> --- On *Thu, 8/27/09, Matt Reichel /<mattreichel at hotmail.com>/* wrote:
>>> From: Matt Reichel <mattreichel at hotmail.com> Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss]
>>> Re: petition period has begun for next year's D and R primaries To:
>>> ewj at pigs.ag Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net Date: Thursday, August 
>>> 27,
>>> 2009, 8:03 AM
>>> Given the short time period of the special election, the fact that the
>>> Democrat was the presumed winner in the gerrymandered district, and the
>>> relative unknown nature of Pulido outside of various wacko channels, 
>>> there
>>> aren't a whole lot of gold standards reporting on her. The value of the
>>> article I linked to had nothing to do with its investigative rigor, but
>>> rather with the fact that several quotes of Rosanna's were carefully laid
>>> out in succession. You only need listen to Rosanna to understand that she
>>> is an imbecile.
>>>> From what I am reading here, perhaps the Campaign for Liberty
>>> ought be renamed the "Campaign for Liberty for Heterosexual White Men."
>>> Truly Scary Stuff.
>>> Best, Matt
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>>> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 15:24:09 -0500 From: ewj at pigs.ag To:
>>> mattreichel at hotmail.com CC: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net Subject: Re:
>>> [Peace-discuss] Re: petition period has begun for next year's D and R
>>> primaries
>>> Matt,
>>> Wonkette is certainly the gold standard of truth and carefully considered
>>> journalism.
>>> I am really with you on this one.  I am so disappointed that Rosanna
>>> "apologized".  I don't much go for flip-floppers. Thanks for pointing 
>>> this
>>> out.  I will ask her what point of weakness led her to apologize when I 
>>> see
>>> her in Du Quoin.  Hope you will be able to make it to come speak to us in
>>> Du Quoin and maybe you can see how she answers my question.
>>> Wayne
>>> On 8/26/2009 2:57 PM, Matt Reichel wrote:
>>> I merely wanted to correct your misconception about Rosanna. She couldn't
>>> be more separated from the liberty movement, which is precisely why David
>>> threw his hat into the primary.
>>> More on Rosanna: 
>>> http://wonkette.com/407392/anonymous-racist-freeper-is-actually-republican-candidate-to-replace-rahm
>>> She was unveiled during the last election as the "Chicagolady" on the 
>>> Free
>>> Republic website, where, among other things, she scribed "I would rather
>>> live in a meat-packing town than a fudge-packing town. Fudge-packing 
>>> should
>>> be outlawed."
>>> This and other homophobic remarks were uncovered prior to her, Quigley 
>>> and
>>> I being invited to speak at a gay rights forum organized by Gay Chicago
>>> magazine. She "apologized" for her remarks and went on into a tirade 
>>> about
>>> how the Mexican government is intentionally exporting poverty to the 
>>> United
>>>  States and how people need to rise to the defense of our homeland from
>>> these illegal immigrants.
>>> If this is the kind of politician that you support as part of the liberty
>>> movement, I would be compelled to seriously question your credentials as 
>>> a
>>> "peace activist."
>>> Cheers, Matt
>>>> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 14:34:24 -0500 From: ewj at pigs.ag
>>> <http://us.mc306.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ewj@pigs.ag>
>>>> To: mattreichel at hotmail.com
>>> <http://us.mc306.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mattreichel@hotmail.com>
>>>> CC: naiman.uiuc at gmail.com
>>> <http://us.mc306.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=naiman.uiuc@gmail.com>; 
>>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net 
>>> <http://us.mc306.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Re: petition period has begun
>>> for next year's D and R primaries
>>>> Fascist in what sense?
>>>> I dont live in her district but I'll ask Rosanna about you
>>> and Mr. Ratowitz.
>>>> You are surely a pleasant enough fellow, helping us identify 
>>>> hate-mongers
>>>> like you do.
>>>> On 8/26/2009 2:07 PM, Matt Reichel wrote:
>>>>> Rosanna Pulido is not a Ron Paulista; she is a fascist, racist
>>>>> hate-monger who heads the Illinois Minuteman. I am not sure where you
>>>>> have her identified as belonging to the Ron
>>>>> Paul movement. She did show up at the July 4th Tea Party, but 
>>>>> demonstrated no idea as to what it was about. She is being opposed in
>>>>> the Republican Primary by David Ratowitz, who
>>>>> is a genuine Ron Paulista, and a far superior candidate.
>>>>> Either one will lose to me in the general election.
>>>>> Best, Matt Reichel www.mattreichel.us <http://www.mattreichel.us/>
>
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