[Peace-discuss] Re: petition period has begun for next year's D and R primaries

Thu Aug 27 12:49:17 CDT 2009

I'm afraid this is a lot like shadow-boxing.  If there is one person on this list who believes that diversity is all we need, I'd like to hear from them.  

Of course it's always worth discussing the hard realities of class - in fact I think it takes considerable mental gymnastics to separate class out - but as a means of deepening our discussions of social ills, not as a way of silencing or marginalizing other concerns.  What is the point of that, besides publishing?

Gore Vidal, whatever else he may be right about, misses the boat on this one (as well as humanity being divided into male and female only, I might quibble).  His point here is absurdly abstract, the stuff of armchair philosopher-linguists and teenagers who think the world's conflicts would be resolved if everyone had a clearer definition of all their terms.  

In our society there certainly are self-defined gay people, including people on this list.  The fact that there is no scientific test for it means nothing, any more that the unscientific nature of the concept of race means that black people do not exist.

But none of this is the real point, which is not that this supposed "libertarian" used the wrong word.  The point is that she betrayed an apparently deep-seated prejudice against a substantial segment of the population - not against murderers or rapists, or child pornographers, etc. but against a entire group defined by what they do virtually always in private, with no harm to anyone else.  Of course there are members of this group, as there are members of different groups (although statistically the shoe is generally on the other foot), who do harm others - so talk about people who do whatever harm to others, regardless of sex, creed, race, etc.

And just to reiterate, before I'm accused of being more concerned about sexual orientation than class: it's part of the same thing.  Take the South African Communist Party again  - or the Nazis' welfare programs for Germans only - as an example: is it real socialism, or liberation, if we leave out big groups of people?  And why should we?

Ricky

"Speak your mind even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn

--- On Thu, 8/27/09, C. G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu> wrote:

From: C. G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu>
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Re: petition period has begun for next year's D and R primaries
To: "E. Wayne Johnson" <ewj at pigs.ag>
Cc: "Ricky Baldwin" <baldwinricky at yahoo.com>, peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 12:06 PM

Amongst those for whom identity politics have replaced class politics -- i.e.,
diversity (politics as etiquette) is all the more tenaciously insisted upon as a
substitute for economic equality as a real political goal -- voicing such
opinions about homosexuality becomes a "hate crime," the worst delict in the
liberal decalogue.

American society today seems to have a Victorian prudishness about the actual
consideration of sexual morality, which is quite different from relegating the
matter to the rather minor importance it deserves.

But as a political matter we attribute far too much importance to it, ignoring
e.g. the wisdom of Gore Vidal from long ago,

"Actually, there is no such thing as a homosexual person, any more than there is
such a thing as a heterosexual person. The words are adjectives describing
sexual acts, not people ... The reason no one has yet been able to come up with
a good word to describe the homosexualist (sometimes known as gay, fag, queer,
etc.) is because he does not exist. The human race is divided into male and
female. Many human beings enjoy sexual relations with their own sex, many don't;
many respond to both. This plurality is the fact of our nature and not worth
fretting about."  --"Sex Is Politics" (1979)

E. Wayne Johnson wrote:
> It's not clear to me what sort of standards for etiquette and language exist
> for blogs and the internet.
> 
> Certainly the FCC ban on Carlin's "7 Words" doesnt apply, and one probably
> can't write for the Rolling Stone or Wonkette without being well-versed in
> punctuating ones remarks with a profusion of explicit calumnious metaphoric.
> 
> What bothers me most is the hypocrisy implicit in calling the expressed admonitions of a group "homophobic", "wacko", and "hate-mongering".   Some of
> the so-called left liberals are the most likely to engage in intensely
> disparaging and often obscene remarks about those who oppose their
> immorality.  Isn't it "hate-mongering" to call someone a "hate-monger"?
> Isn't it Wack to call someone a wacko?
> 
> If I lived in Ms. Pulido's district, I would be likely to vote for her, knowing that she understands the dangers of homosexuality and is therefore
> more likely to favour measures that would tend to contain and extinguish
> homosexuality rather than encourage it.
> 
> I would guess that those who engage in homosexual behaviour and those who
> actively condone and promote homosexual behaviour would have a similar
> response to any opposition to their ideas regardless of what descriptive
> colloquialism is employed.
> 
> 
> On 8/27/2009 8:55 AM, Ricky Baldwin wrote:
>> Wayne,
>> 
>> Are you endorsing these "fudge-packing" remarks in the original context?
>> 
>> Ricky
>> 
>> "Speak your mind even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn
>> 
>> --- On *Thu, 8/27/09, Matt Reichel /<mattreichel at hotmail.com>/* wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> From: Matt Reichel <mattreichel at hotmail.com> Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss]
>> Re: petition period has begun for next year's D and R primaries To:
>> ewj at pigs.ag Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net Date: Thursday, August 27,
>> 2009, 8:03 AM
>> 
>> Given the short time period of the special election, the fact that the
>> Democrat was the presumed winner in the gerrymandered district, and the
>> relative unknown nature of Pulido outside of various wacko channels, there
>> aren't a whole lot of gold standards reporting on her. The value of the
>> article I linked to had nothing to do with its investigative rigor, but
>> rather with the fact that several quotes of Rosanna's were carefully laid
>> out in succession. You only need listen to Rosanna to understand that she
>> is an imbecile.
>> 
>>> From what I am reading here, perhaps the Campaign for Liberty
>> ought be renamed the "Campaign for Liberty for Heterosexual White Men."
>> 
>> Truly Scary Stuff.
>> 
>> Best, Matt
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 15:24:09 -0500 From: ewj at pigs.ag To:
>> mattreichel at hotmail.com CC: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net Subject: Re:
>> [Peace-discuss] Re: petition period has begun for next year's D and R
>> primaries
>> 
>> Matt,
>> 
>> Wonkette is certainly the gold standard of truth and carefully considered
>> journalism.
>> 
>> I am really with you on this one.  I am so disappointed that Rosanna
>> "apologized".  I don't much go for flip-floppers. Thanks for pointing this
>> out.  I will ask her what point of weakness led her to apologize when I see
>> her in Du Quoin.  Hope you will be able to make it to come speak to us in
>> Du Quoin and maybe you can see how she answers my question.
>> 
>> Wayne
>> 
>> On 8/26/2009 2:57 PM, Matt Reichel wrote:
>> 
>> I merely wanted to correct your misconception about Rosanna. She couldn't
>> be more separated from the liberty movement, which is precisely why David
>> threw his hat into the primary.
>> 
>> More on Rosanna: http://wonkette.com/407392/anonymous-racist-freeper-is-actually-republican-candidate-to-replace-rahm
>> 
>> 
>> She was unveiled during the last election as the "Chicagolady" on the Free
>> Republic website, where, among other things, she scribed "I would rather
>> live in a meat-packing town than a fudge-packing town. Fudge-packing should
>> be outlawed."
>> 
>> This and other homophobic remarks were uncovered prior to her, Quigley and
>> I being invited to speak at a gay rights forum organized by Gay Chicago
>> magazine. She "apologized" for her remarks and went on into a tirade about
>> how the Mexican government is intentionally exporting poverty to the United
>>  States and how people need to rise to the defense of our homeland from
>> these illegal immigrants.
>> 
>> If this is the kind of politician that you support as part of the liberty
>> movement, I would be compelled to seriously question your credentials as a
>> "peace activist."
>> 
>> Cheers, Matt
>> 
>>> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 14:34:24 -0500 From: ewj at pigs.ag
>> <http://us.mc306.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ewj@pigs.ag>
>>> To: mattreichel at hotmail.com
>> <http://us.mc306.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mattreichel@hotmail.com>
>>> CC: naiman.uiuc at gmail.com
>> <http://us.mc306.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=naiman.uiuc@gmail.com>; peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <http://us.mc306.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net>
>> 
>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Re: petition period has begun
>> for next year's D and R primaries
>>> 
>>> Fascist in what sense?
>>> 
>>> I dont live in her district but I'll ask Rosanna about you
>> and Mr. Ratowitz.
>>> 
>>> You are surely a pleasant enough fellow, helping us identify hate-mongers
>>> like you do.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 8/26/2009 2:07 PM, Matt Reichel wrote:
>>>> Rosanna Pulido is not a Ron Paulista; she is a fascist, racist
>>>> hate-monger who heads the Illinois Minuteman. I am not sure where you
>>>> have her identified as belonging to the Ron
>>>> Paul movement. She did show up at the July 4th Tea Party, but demonstrated no idea as to what it was about. She is being opposed in
>>>> the Republican Primary by David Ratowitz, who
>>>> is a genuine Ron Paulista, and a far superior candidate.
>>>> 
>>>> Either one will lose to me in the general election.
>>>> 
>>>> Best, Matt Reichel www.mattreichel.us <http://www.mattreichel.us/>

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