[Peace-discuss] economics of abortion and parenthood,
was: Immigration Reform Rally!
Ricky Baldwin
baldwinricky at yahoo.com
Mon Dec 7 14:11:39 CST 2009
Karen asks a good question - how we got from immigration to abortion. The answer is, Wayne sees them as related as issues of population control, a view I find simplistic but not totally non sequitur (in that some people do relate them this way - but nobody we're talking to currently, so I'm not sure of the significance here).
For what it's worth, I agree that abortion affects different populations differently, as do so many other things - including childbirth. As usual the poor and otherwise underprivileged get the worst hit. By that I do not mean that abortion is always the horror that some anti-abortion ideologues suggest, or that childbirth is always a horror, although it can be. Abortion can be a kind of salvation, rescue, liberation. Parenthood can open up a new and amazing world. But that isn't the case for all. Economic and other social pressures can coerce people into excruciatingly painful decisions of the most personal nature imaginable. It is entirely correct to observe that this is not in any meaningful sense a free choice.
Yet to remove the option is not to empower.
When we observe that people are forced into bad food choices, for example, we do not outlaw cheap food - although some liberals would. Nowadays women actually keep up with men pretty well in earnings - until they hit the childbearing years, when they fall behind and never catch up again, statistically. Individually having children or having more children can be devastating to a family's financial well-being. But none of us would propose that, therefore, there should be income-synchronous limits on family size. It just isn't the right way to respond. Being raise in a single-parent household hits a poor kid hard; a rich kid, not so much.
It is very bad for a person's health to sit hours on end in front of a TV or computer and skip vital exercise - and it can affect us all by driving up health care costs, etc. Yet we do not think it reasonable to make such choices illegal. It's unclear to me how this last risk distributes over demographics :-) - but in the case of abortion and parenthood and so many other things that track unfortunately along with poverty and powerlessness, it is the poverty and powerlessness that are the problem. These are the evils we must address.
My 2c.
Ricky
"Speak your mind even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn
--- On Mon, 12/7/09, E. Wayne Johnson <ewj at pigs.ag> wrote:
From: E. Wayne Johnson <ewj at pigs.ag>
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Re: Immigration Reform Rally!
To: "Jenifer Cartwright" <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
Cc: "AWARE peace discussion" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Date: Monday, December 7, 2009, 12:15 PM
I dont suppose I have used the expression "welfare queen" but you
undoubtably have touched on the pro-abortion argument that its is
cheaper for the gov't to fund abortions than to support the children.
The CDC reports data from 2006:
Black women make up about 12.3% of the population but account for 35%
of all abortions. Hispanics make up 22% of all abortions but only
12.5% of the female population. Non-hispanic white women make up 62.6%
of the population but only 34% of the abortions.
The abortion ratio in the USA was 236 abortions per 1,000 live births
but among blacks the abortion ratio was 459 per 1000 live births.
On 12/7/2009 10:47 AM, Jenifer Cartwright wrote:
Gee Wayne, all the folks I know who've ended pregnancies
are middle- or upper-middle class... and then there are all those folks
on welfare who have 8+ kids... Lessee, what do you call them?? Oh yeah,
Welfare Queens.
--Jenifer
--- On Sun, 12/6/09, E. Wayne Johnson <ewj at pigs.ag>
wrote:
From: E. Wayne Johnson <ewj at pigs.ag>
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Re: Immigration Reform Rally!
To: "Ricky Baldwin" <baldwinricky at yahoo.com>
Cc: "AWARE peace discussion" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>,
"Stuart Levy" <slevy at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Date: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 3:59 PM
I didnt mean you personally but noted
late, too late, it could be most easily taken that way.
I just wanted to point out the elitist overtones.
I would contend that were it not for the outright murder of ~50 million
American citizens via abortion, there would be no dysfunction of
population equilibrium that is the real force driving the wave of net
immigration...
Abortion would not be legal if not for its eugenic
effect.
(Of course I am strongly opposed to abortion, be it early, late,
preemptive, or retroactive.)
When people tell me what they think about abortion they just tell me
what they think about murder.
Why kill the child before birth? What not wait some time after birth
and decide whether you like the baby or not?
Doesnt that make more sense then getting rid of the kid before ya know
if its any good or not?
You could take the child back to the hospital for "recycling". I
understand that there is a high demand for
not-quite-fully-differentiated cells for the "spare parts" and "good
used parts" market.
Of course I write foolishness here, but really, what is the
difference?
On 12/6/2009 3:28 PM, Ricky Baldwin wrote:
No such thing, Wayne. This event is being organized by a
student group, hence the focus. La Colectiva Latina actually works on
immigration issues generally, and does some excellent work among the
very population you mention here locally - at Shadowwood, etc
If you mean me, I've actually done solidarity work with farmworkers
standing up for their rights, in ways that they chose, for quite a few
years. If you want to make this about me, I'm surprised you hadn't
noticed the postings on those issues. I happen to think that the right
approach to immigration "problems" is to guarantee the same rights, at
work and so on, to everybody - then there's no incentive for
unscrupulous employers to hire coyotes to scam desperate victims of our
imperialist policies into slavery and near-slavery here - and to stop
supporting repressive regimes abroad that create waves of immigration,
etc.
To clarify, abortion ought to be freely available for anyone who wants
it - regardless of anyone's paranoia about that. But I'm only in favor
of euthanasia for so-called "Libertarians" who are opposed to other
people's rights ;-)
By the way, thanks, Stuart. That's what I hear, too. Wayne is
engaging in groundless speculation again, I believe. I won't speculate
about the basis of his speculation.
Ricky
"Speak your mind even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn
--- On Sun, 12/6/09, E. Wayne Johnson <ewj at pigs.ag>
wrote:
From: E. Wayne Johnson <ewj at pigs.ag>
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Re: Immigration Reform Rally!
To: "Stuart Levy" <slevy at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Cc: "AWARE peace discussion" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Date: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 2:53 PM
Why special favours for
those fortunate ones who attend universities and not for those who pick
fruit, sort and pack vegetables, work in in meatpacking establishments,
and clean our homes and buildings?
On 12/6/2009 2:27 PM, Stuart Levy wrote:
On Sun, Dec 06, 2009 at 12:40:26PM -0600, E. Wayne Johnson wrote:
Ricky,
You really are all about Eugenics, aren't you?
Abortion for the human weeds.
Import the best and brightest.
What do you propose for the "Culls"? Detention? Euthanasia?
Wayne
Wayne,
What on earth? This event is to promote a humane US immigration policy.
Plyler v. Doe for example says that states have to offer public education
to everybody, without screening by immigrant status.
I do hear eugenics-like language being used in the debate at times,
but coming from people opposed to such a policy. They talk about
impure stock coming across the borders, and not wanting them to mix with
the good american stock. Things like that. Much as many people did in the
late 19th/early 20th century when the impure stock were coming from
southern and eastern europe, like my father's parents.
I don't hear that kind of thing coming from people supporting things
like the DREAM act, do you?
On 12/5/2009 12:43 PM, Ricky Baldwin wrote:
From: Celeste Larkin <celeste.larkin at gmail.com>
Subject: [PeoplesPotluck] Immigration Reform Rally!
To: peoplespotluck at lists.chambana.net
Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 9:37 PM
Wednesday, December 9th at 6:30 PM, in the Foellinger Auditorium,
the IDream Coalition will be hosting the *D.R.E.A.M.
Act/Immigration Reform Rally*! At the rally, we will be calling
upon our legislators, community and university to support
Immigration Reform that helps undocumented students gain
citizenship through higher education.
*_So what's the
rally all about?_ *
-Come to *learn* about past and present immigration legislation
such as:
* Plyer v. Doe
* Gutierrez/Immigration Bill
* HB 60
* DREAM Act
Inform yourself about our country's immigration laws!
-Come to see different U of I student organizations speaking about
how the immigration debate relates to them and *why we should
*/*ALL*/* care!*
-Come to witness testimonials from undocumented students who have
*shared their struggle* and personal immigration stories.
-Come to find out how you can *get involved* in future movements
for human rights and immigration reform.
So come, learn, witness, and show your support for those thousands
of undocumented students--because a few minutes of your time could
change someone's life forever!
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