[Peace-discuss] economics of abortion and parenthood,
was: Immigration Reform Rally!
E. Wayne Johnson
ewj at pigs.ag
Mon Dec 7 15:24:19 CST 2009
Immigration and abortion do both have a large racist component. We have
discussed that relative to abortion. Racism is the implicit operative
of immigration law... we exclude those who we don't like or are not
like us.
Abortion terminates a human life. How you dismiss that is an important
point. Murder always has a motive. One is saved, rescued, and
liberated perhaps, and the other gets the physical equivalent of death
in a Waring blender.
I am constantly taken aback by how authoritarian "liberals" are. I
should learn to get used to it but it still has shock value for me. I
am glad to see that at least you would not force income-synchronous
limits on family size nor dictate dietary policy, however there are
those who would love to.
Some libertarians make an argument against immigration based upon
property rights. They commit an serious error in that it is assumed
that all property is held personally and privately, which is absurd.
On 12/7/2009 2:11 PM, Ricky Baldwin wrote:
> Karen asks a good question - how we got from immigration to abortion.
> The answer is, Wayne sees them as related as issues of population
> control, a view I find simplistic but not totally non sequitur (in
> that some people do relate them this way - but nobody we're talking to
> currently, so I'm not sure of the significance here).
>
> For what it's worth, I agree that abortion affects different
> populations differently, as do so many other things - including
> childbirth. As usual the poor and otherwise underprivileged get the
> worst hit. By that I do not mean that abortion is always the horror
> that some anti-abortion ideologues suggest, or that childbirth is
> always a horror, although it can be. Abortion can be a kind of
> salvation, rescue, liberation. Parenthood can open up a new and
> amazing world. But that isn't the case for all. Economic and other
> social pressures can coerce people into excruciatingly painful
> decisions of the most personal nature imaginable. It is entirely
> correct to observe that this is not in any meaningful sense a free choice.
>
> Yet to remove the option is not to empower.
>
> When we observe that people are forced into bad food choices, for
> example, we do not outlaw cheap food - although some liberals would.
> Nowadays women actually keep up with men pretty well in earnings -
> until they hit the childbearing years, when they fall behind and never
> catch up again, statistically. Individually having children or having
> more children can be devastating to a family's financial well-being.
> But none of us would propose that, therefore, there should be
> income-synchronous limits on family size. It just isn't the right way
> to respond. Being raise in a single-parent household hits a poor kid
> hard; a rich kid, not so much.
>
> It is very bad for a person's health to sit hours on end in front of a
> TV or computer and skip vital exercise - and it can affect us all by
> driving up health care costs, etc. Yet we do not think it reasonable
> to make such choices illegal. It's unclear to me how this last risk
> distributes over demographics :-) - but in the case of abortion and
> parenthood and so many other things that track unfortunately along
> with poverty and powerlessness, it is the poverty and powerlessness
> that are the problem. These are the evils we must address.
>
> My 2c.
> Ricky
>
> "Speak your mind even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn
>
> --- On *Mon, 12/7/09, E. Wayne Johnson /<ewj at pigs.ag>/* wrote:
>
>
> From: E. Wayne Johnson <ewj at pigs.ag>
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Re: Immigration Reform Rally!
> To: "Jenifer Cartwright" <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "AWARE peace discussion" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
> Date: Monday, December 7, 2009, 12:15 PM
>
> I dont suppose I have used the expression "welfare queen" but you
> undoubtably have touched on the pro-abortion argument that its is
> cheaper for the gov't to fund abortions than to support the children.
>
> The CDC reports data from 2006:
>
> Black women make up about 12.3% of the population but account for
> 35% of all abortions. Hispanics make up 22% of all abortions but
> only 12.5% of the female population. Non-hispanic white women
> make up 62.6% of the population but only 34% of the abortions.
>
> The abortion ratio in the USA was 236 abortions per 1,000 live
> births but among blacks the abortion ratio was 459 per 1000 live
> births.
>
> On 12/7/2009 10:47 AM, Jenifer Cartwright wrote:
>> Gee Wayne, all the folks I know who've ended pregnancies are
>> middle- or upper-middle class... and then there are all those
>> folks on welfare who have 8+ kids... Lessee, what do you call
>> them?? Oh yeah, Welfare Queens.
>> --Jenifer
>>
>> --- On *Sun, 12/6/09, E. Wayne Johnson /<ewj at pigs.ag>/* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: E. Wayne Johnson <ewj at pigs.ag>
>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Re: Immigration Reform Rally!
>> To: "Ricky Baldwin" <baldwinricky at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: "AWARE peace discussion"
>> <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>, "Stuart Levy"
>> <slevy at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
>> Date: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 3:59 PM
>>
>> I didnt mean you personally but noted late, too late, it
>> could be most easily taken that way.
>>
>> I just wanted to point out the elitist overtones.
>>
>> I would contend that were it not for the outright murder of
>> ~50 million American citizens via abortion, there would be no
>> dysfunction of population equilibrium that is the real force
>> driving the wave of net immigration...
>>
>> _*Abortion would not be legal if not for its eugenic effect. *_
>>
>> (Of course I am strongly opposed to abortion, be it early,
>> late, preemptive, or retroactive.)
>>
>> When people tell me what they think about abortion they just
>> tell me what they think about murder.
>>
>> Why kill the child before birth? What not wait some time
>> after birth and decide whether you like the baby or not?
>> Doesnt that make more sense then getting rid of the kid
>> before ya know if its any good or not?
>>
>> You could take the child back to the hospital for
>> "recycling". I understand that there is a high demand for
>> not-quite-fully-differentiated cells for the "spare parts"
>> and "good used parts" market.
>>
>> Of course I write foolishness here, but really, what is the
>> difference?
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/6/2009 3:28 PM, Ricky Baldwin wrote:
>>> No such thing, Wayne. This event is being organized by a
>>> student group, hence the focus. La Colectiva Latina
>>> actually works on immigration issues generally, and does
>>> some excellent work among the very population you mention
>>> here locally - at Shadowwood, etc
>>>
>>> If you mean me, I've actually done solidarity work with
>>> farmworkers standing up for their rights, in ways that they
>>> chose, for quite a few years. If you want to make this
>>> about me, I'm surprised you hadn't noticed the postings on
>>> those issues. I happen to think that the right approach to
>>> immigration "problems" is to guarantee the same rights, at
>>> work and so on, to everybody - then there's no incentive for
>>> unscrupulous employers to hire coyotes to scam desperate
>>> victims of our imperialist policies into slavery and
>>> near-slavery here - and to stop supporting repressive
>>> regimes abroad that create waves of immigration, etc.
>>>
>>> To clarify, abortion ought to be freely available for anyone
>>> who wants it - regardless of anyone's paranoia about that.
>>> But I'm only in favor of euthanasia for so-called
>>> "Libertarians" who are opposed to other people's rights ;-)
>>>
>>> By the way, thanks, Stuart. That's what I hear, too. Wayne
>>> is engaging in groundless speculation again, I believe. I
>>> won't speculate about the basis of his speculation.
>>>
>>> Ricky
>>>
>>> "Speak your mind even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn
>>>
>>> --- On *Sun, 12/6/09, E. Wayne Johnson /<ewj at pigs.ag>/* wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> From: E. Wayne Johnson <ewj at pigs.ag>
>>> Subject: [Peace-discuss] Re: Immigration Reform Rally!
>>> To: "Stuart Levy" <slevy at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
>>> Cc: "AWARE peace discussion"
>>> <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>> Date: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 2:53 PM
>>>
>>> Why special favours for those fortunate ones who attend
>>> universities and not for those who pick fruit, sort and
>>> pack vegetables, work in in meatpacking establishments,
>>> and clean our homes and buildings?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/6/2009 2:27 PM, Stuart Levy wrote:
>>>> On Sun, Dec 06, 2009 at 12:40:26PM -0600, E. Wayne Johnson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ricky,
>>>>>
>>>>> You really are all about Eugenics, aren't you?
>>>>>
>>>>> Abortion for the human weeds.
>>>>>
>>>>> Import the best and brightest.
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you propose for the "Culls"? Detention? Euthanasia?
>>>>>
>>>>> Wayne
>>>>>
>>>> Wayne,
>>>>
>>>> What on earth? This event is to promote a humane US immigration policy.
>>>>
>>>> Plyler v. Doe for example says that states have to offer public education
>>>> to everybody, without screening by immigrant status.
>>>>
>>>> I do hear eugenics-like language being used in the debate at times,
>>>> but coming from people opposed to such a policy. They talk about
>>>> impure stock coming across the borders, and not wanting them to mix with
>>>> the good american stock. Things like that. Much as many people did in the
>>>> late 19th/early 20th century when the impure stock were coming from
>>>> southern and eastern europe, like my father's parents.
>>>>
>>>> I don't hear that kind of thing coming from people supporting things
>>>> like the DREAM act, do you?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/5/2009 12:43 PM, Ricky Baldwin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Celeste Larkin<celeste.larkin at gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Subject: [PeoplesPotluck] Immigration Reform Rally!
>>>>>> To:peoplespotluck at lists.chambana.net
>>>>>> Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 9:37 PM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wednesday, December 9th at 6:30 PM, in the Foellinger Auditorium,
>>>>>> the IDream Coalition will be hosting the *D.R.E.A.M.
>>>>>> Act/Immigration Reform Rally*! At the rally, we will be calling
>>>>>> upon our legislators, community and university to support
>>>>>> Immigration Reform that helps undocumented students gain
>>>>>> citizenship through higher education.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *_So what's the
>>>>>> rally all about?_ *
>>>>>> -Come to *learn* about past and present immigration legislation
>>>>>> such as:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Plyer v. Doe
>>>>>> * Gutierrez/Immigration Bill
>>>>>> * HB 60
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * DREAM Act
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Inform yourself about our country's immigration laws!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Come to see different U of I student organizations speaking about
>>>>>> how the immigration debate relates to them and *why we should
>>>>>> */*ALL*/* care!*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Come to witness testimonials from undocumented students who have
>>>>>> *shared their struggle* and personal immigration stories.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Come to find out how you can *get involved* in future movements
>>>>>> for human rights and immigration reform.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So come, learn, witness, and show your support for those thousands
>>>>>> of undocumented students--because a few minutes of your time could
>>>>>> change someone's life forever!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>
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