[Peace-discuss] Would It Kill Us to Apologize to Iran for the Coup?

Fri Feb 6 08:58:54 CST 2009

I'm definitely not in favor of refusal to recognize privilege. But I
presume that in a non-racist society, if everyone woke up one day and
discovered that by some mysterious process, a chunk of their neighbors
were disproportionately excluded from the economic benefits that the
society had to offer, people would move to address the disparity.

So, the fact that such disparities persist in our society, and the
fact that we don't move successfully to redress them, to me is
evidence enough of racism; no other story is necessary. That doesn't
mean that other stories don't have value, and might not also be
important to achieving the end of redress, but I see no need to posit
them as prerequisites, and some reason not to; since it might be the
case, for example, that some people have a psychological barrier
against recognizing privilege, but not against redress justified on
some other basis.

On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 8:46 PM, Marti Wilkinson <martiwilki at gmail.com> wrote:
> The problem with refusing to recognize privilege is that it creates a set of
> blinders that perpetuates the status quo. So while I do agree with the
> sentiments you have expressed - I still think that privilege matters. Racism
> rears its ugly head in various ways such as the attitude that poor and
> marginalized groups remain that way due to a failure to pull themselves up
> by the bootstraps. This 'blame the victim' approach is one that is used to
> great effect by opponents of reparation, equal rights, and affirmative
> action.
>
> Even worse is the way in which groups can be pitted against one another. In
> 1996 California passed proposition 209 which killed affirmative action in
> public universities. The sad irony is that it was the vote of white women
> that played a tremendous role in passing 209.  More recently proposition 8
> had support amongst minorities and, as long as we refuse to look at
> privilege, situations like this will continue. On an international scale
> this can manifest in the form of being accused of antisemitism if one
> supports human rights endeavors in Palestine, or focusing on the hostage
> situation in Iran instead of the coup instigated by the US.
>
> If priviledge didn't matter then our politicians would be sending their kids
> overseas to get killed in Iraq. What would happen if our state
> representatives and senators where given a link card, then told to feed
> their families solely on what is available. How many people really
> understand what it is like to have a medical card and not get medical care?
> At one point in my life I actually did end up on welfare and, while the
> experience sucked on so many levels, I'm grateful that it gave me the
> opportunity to really see what happens when you are below the poverty line.
>
> On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:01 PM, Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, although you could be for reparations without being for guilt,
>> or even acknowledging privilege. It's a blight on us all that the
>> descendants of slaves have a disproportionately small share of the
>> national economic pie, even if we got off the boat yesterday. I'm for
>> shoveling more money their collective way by any means possible. Call
>> it whatever you want: reparations, affirmative action, full
>> employment, raising the minimum wage, raising the earned income
>> credit, making it easier to form unions, shifting the burden of
>> taxation toward the wealthy, universal health care: I'm for it.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:32 PM, Marti Wilkinson <martiwilki at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > The problem with the United States is that many individuals refuse to
>> > accept
>> > ownership of human rights violations and crimes if they don't see their
>> > ancestors as guilty parties. For example: How many people do you know
>> > who
>> > object to making reparations to the descendants of slaves and Native
>> > Americans because their ancestor didn't immigrate to the states until
>> > after
>> > 1900?  People often do not understand how privilege benefits them or see
>> > the
>> > long term damage that is the result of years of prejudice and bigotry.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Something to keep in mind in judging whether an apology is an empty
>> >> endeavor: should all opinions have equal weight? Or should the
>> >> opinions of the victims of a crime and their descendants have greater
>> >> weight than the opinions of the perpetrators of the crime and their
>> >> descendants?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 8:23 PM, Marti Wilkinson <martiwilki at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > I'm going to have to disagree with the notion that making the apology
>> >> > is
>> >> > an
>> >> > empty endeavor. Sometimes it's important to do the right thing, if
>> >> > for
>> >> > no
>> >> > other reason than it's the right thing to do. Now if the US were to
>> >> > issue an
>> >> > apology then fail to engage in diplomatic relations with Iran then it
>> >> > could
>> >> > be argued that making such an overture is lacking in substance.
>> >> >
>> >> > I remember when American hostages were in Iran during the Carter
>> >> > administration.  As a middle school student I had to say the pledge
>> >> > of
>> >> > allegiance to the flag with my fellow students every day until they
>> >> > came
>> >> > home. No one ever really discussed the history of Iran and the
>> >> > actions
>> >> > of
>> >> > the United States. Instead myself and my peers were told that the
>> >> > Ayatollah
>> >> > Khomeini was a modern day version of the Big Bad Wolf blowing the
>> >> > house
>> >> > of
>> >> > the poor Shah down. History and civics was taught in ways that were
>> >> > favorable to the position of the United States and often areas such
>> >> > as
>> >> > our
>> >> > treatment of Native Americans and the civil rights movement were
>> >> > either
>> >> > given lip service or glossed over. I was a junior in college before I
>> >> > even
>> >> > heard the name Emmett Till, and I still consider myself to be
>> >> > ignorant
>> >> > (not
>> >> > stupid) in regards to where foreign policy is concerned.
>> >> >
>> >> > This is why we need people like Stephen Kinzer and other individuals
>> >> > who
>> >> > are
>> >> > willing to share how our actions are perceived in other lands. When
>> >> > my
>> >> > uncle
>> >> > went to Denmark to visit relatives he was confronted by people who
>> >> > were
>> >> > very
>> >> > angry with the Bush administration. He later communicated to my
>> >> > mother
>> >> > that
>> >> > it was the first time he had been taken to task over the leadership
>> >> > of
>> >> > this
>> >> > country....and he has been to many places around the world. While I
>> >> > doubt
>> >> > that the United States will ever be able to make full restitution for
>> >> > the
>> >> > harm that this nation has caused both here and overseas - we can at
>> >> > the
>> >> > very
>> >> > least make a geniune effort at reconcilation and amends. If this
>> >> > means
>> >> > admitting that we really F*cked up than I'm all for it.
>> >> >
>> >> > Marti
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 2:42 PM, E. Wayne Johnson <ewj at pigs.ag> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I don't expect them to apologize any time soon,
>> >> >> but at the same time I don't value such an
>> >> >> apology as having any real value.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> To me, such an apology is just empty words, of the "Talk is cheap &
>> >> >> I
>> >> >> love
>> >> >> you is Free" variety.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Much more valuable would be a real change in policy, closing of
>> >> >> bases,
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> coming home,
>> >> >> which would speak meaningful volumes more that "We're soooooo sorry,
>> >> >> Uncle
>> >> >> al-Arabiya..."
>> >> >>
>> >> >> *
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Obama's appointments are surprisingly poor, even from the standpoint
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> one
>> >> >> of his unrelenting detractors (like me).  You could hardly imagine
>> >> >> much
>> >> >> worse
>> >> >> than Rahmbo, Hillary, Gates, Geithner, Ray LaHood,...  It's almost
>> >> >> too
>> >> >> surreal
>> >> >> to make accessible comedy.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Robert Naiman wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> whenever someone suggests that the US apologize for something, some
>> >> >> people always say: but this would open the floodgates. i don't
>> >> >> accept
>> >> >> this argument, either on moral or practical grounds.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> on moral grounds: it suggests that we should not do something right,
>> >> >> because it would "open the floodgates" for other demands that we do
>> >> >> something right.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> on practical grounds: after Clinton "near-apologized" for the US
>> >> >> role
>> >> >> in Guatemala, life went on. There is little evidence that life as we
>> >> >> know it would grind to a halt if the US acknowledged what it did in
>> >> >> Iran in 1953 and after.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Jenifer Cartwright
>> >> >> <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Good points, Bob... And you could extend that: most Americans have
>> >> >> little
>> >> >> knowledge of the history of US foreign OR domestic policy, period...
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> little sensitivity even when they do e g, Manifest Destiny/Native
>> >> >> Americans.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Amazing to me that Obama admitted he "screwed up" re not knowing
>> >> >> about
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> Daschle taxes thing, but stood by his nomination, saying he'd have
>> >> >> made
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> good sect'y of HHS.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Re Obama's apologising for US behavior twds Iran, well, that would
>> >> >> open
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> floodgates for other nations (esp in the ME) to demand apologies as
>> >> >> well.
>> >> >> So
>> >> >> I think it'd better for him to take an open, honest and
>> >> >> concilliatory
>> >> >> approach twds Iran (and other wronged countries) going forward (as
>> >> >> they
>> >> >> say), and (especially) to immediately give orders for the US to stop
>> >> >> doing
>> >> >> things (e g occupying Iraq, fighting in Afghanistan, bombing
>> >> >> Pakistan)
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> need a lot more than apologies.
>> >> >>  --Jenifer
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --- On Wed, 2/4/09, Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> From: Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com>
>> >> >> Subject: [Peace-discuss] Would It Kill Us to Apologize to Iran for
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> Coup?
>> >> >> To: "peace discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>> >> >> Date: Wednesday, February 4, 2009, 1:08 PM
>> >> >>
>> >> >> When President Obama told al-Arabiya, "if countries like Iran are
>> >> >> willing to unclench their fist, they will find an extended hand from
>> >> >> us," the most widely reported Iranian response was President
>> >> >> Ahmedinijad's suggestion that if the U.S. truly wants good relations
>> >> >> with Iran, it should begin by apologizing for U.S. "crimes" against
>> >> >> Iran, including U.S. support for the coup that overthrew Iranian
>> >> >> democracy in 1953. Not surprisingly, there hasn't exactly been a
>> >> >> groundswell of popular support in the United States for President
>> >> >> Ahmadinejad's suggestion...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Of course, if you know anything about the United States, you
>> >> >> wouldn't
>> >> >> leap to the conclusion that Americans, as a country, are a bunch of
>> >> >> jerks who can't admit when they've done anything wrong. Most
>> >> >> Americans
>> >> >> have little knowledge about the history of U.S. foreign policy in
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> Middle East. As far as they know, the U.S. hasn't done anything
>> >> >> wrong.
>> >> >> So why should we apologize?
>> >> >> ....
>> >> >> There is a close precedent. In 1999, President Clinton gave a
>> >> >> "near-apology" for the U.S. role in Guatemala's civil war. If
>> >> >> President Clinton could "near-apologize" for the U.S. role in
>> >> >> Guatemala, is it beyond the realm of imagination that President
>> >> >> Obama
>> >> >> could "near-apologize" for the U.S. overthrow of democracy and
>> >> >> support
>> >> >> of dictatorship in Iran?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-naiman/would-it-kill-us-to-apolo_b_163957.html
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/2/4/134155/4104
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/39545
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Robert Naiman
>> >> >> Just Foreign Policy
>> >> >> www.justforeignpolicy.org
>> >> >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Peace-discuss mailing list
>> >> >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>> >> >> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Peace-discuss mailing list
>> >> >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>> >> >> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Robert Naiman
>> >> Just Foreign Policy
>> >> www.justforeignpolicy.org
>> >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Robert Naiman
>> Just Foreign Policy
>> www.justforeignpolicy.org
>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>
>

-- 
Robert Naiman
Just Foreign Policy
www.justforeignpolicy.org
naiman at justforeignpolicy.org