[Peace-discuss] binary criterion of war/not war

[John W.]

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 3:44 PM, LAURIE SOLOMON <LAURIE at advancenet.net>wrote:

>I'm surprised to hear you argue that there's no difference between a
> fascist
> >dictatorship and a liberal democracy. I though only hard-core radicals
> said
> >that. It's ridiculous.
>
> Depending on how one defines one's terms, in theory, there may be a
> difference or differences; but in practice, show me one liberal democracy
> that exists or ever has existed.  They have all tended toward elitism of
> one
> form or another, toward some type of dictatorship of a special group over
> the others- be it bureaucrats, elected representatives, business or trade
> interests, workers and labor interests, the educated, the well born, etc.),
> and toward promoting, sustaining, and maintaining some established value
> system as the socially sanctioned, culturally dominant and politically
> correct one. In the real world, the differences all boil down to a matter
> of
> degree and not a matter of kind.
>
> >It's at least as ridiculous to think that we can't imagine a better polity
> (and
> >economy) than we have now.
>
> It is just as ridiculous to assume that one persons imagining is the exact
> same or even similar to another's or that your view of the better polity
> would be mine or anyone else's.  The real question is if it is ridiculous
> to
> image a better polity than we have now without also imagining a realistic
> and effective way to achieve it as well and be willing to give up
> everything
> to bring about its implementation.  Otherwise, all one is doing is engaging
> in an exercise in mental masturbation.



Precisely my point.



-----Original Message-----
> From: peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net
>
> [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C. G.
> Estabrook
> Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 2:42 PM
> To: John W.
> Cc: Peace-discuss List; Karen Medina
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] binary criterion of war/not war
>
> I'm surprised to hear you argue that there's no difference between a
> fascist
> dictatorship and a liberal democracy. I though only hard-core radicals said
> that. It's ridiculous.
>
> It's at least as ridiculous to think that we can't imagine a better polity
> (and
> economy) than we have now.  It's difficult to get there, of course.
>
>


> John W. wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Karen Medina <kmedina67 at gmail.com
> > <mailto:kmedina67 at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >> wake me up when one of you figures out a better system of
> > government, in
> >> terms of your ONE stupid binary criterion of war/not war.
> >
> > This does bring up an interesting question. I don't think that the type
> of
>
> > government has much to do with whether a country will go to war.
> >
> >
> > You're correct; type of government has nothing at all to do with it.
> >
> >
> >
> > What does make a difference?
> >
> > I suppose smaller, less powerful countries tend not to declare war on
> their
> > big, powerful neighbors [there are notable exceptions to this rule]. But
> in
> > order to have small countries, large powerful countries would also need
> to
>
> > exist and the big powerful countries would be tempted to create empires.
> >
> >
> > That's right.  But I was not speaking only of one country against
> another,
> as
> >  we traditionally define countries.  In many countries, perhaps
> especially
> > the smaller ones, two or more groups of people fight and kill one another
> > over power.  In our own nation, gangs fight and kill one another over
> > "territory", etc.
> >
> >
> >
> > I suppose that a country made up entirely of Quakers and Mennonites would
> not
> >  start a war. But I don't think religion is a good way to separate people
> > into countries. [Though I have noticed that Mormon children consistently
> > share their toys the most readily of all the children I have observed.]
> >
> > I suppose that if all the countries were on equal footing with regards to
> > resources and access to the basic needs, then there would be less
> temptation
> > to go to war.
> >
> >
> > Less, perhaps, but far from zero.  Remember, most of the wars are started
> by
> > the leaders of the wealthier, more powerful countries who want to be even
> > MORE wealthy and powerful.  Greed has no limit, and it is inherent in
> human
> > nature.  Perhaps less so in the Quakers and Mennonites.  ;-)  And of
> course
> > in AWARE members.  ;-)
> >
> >
> >
> > I think that every 7 years, everything needs to be re-distributed
> equally.
> >
> >
> > It would be lovely, but it would do very little to end war.  And who is
> going
> >  to supervise the redistribution?
> >
> >
> >
> > -karen medina
>
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