[Peace-discuss] Anti-racism

Thu Mar 5 12:49:07 CST 2009

"But you're saying Americans don't generally share these racist attitudes about Arabs/Muslims, these reflected in Carl's poll?"

I have to doubt that a poll of Americans regarding Arab/Muslim citizens or residents in this country would show the same results as those cited in Carl's original post regarding Israel. One caveat is that prejudice that may exist here is probably less likely to be openly expressed (or in a poll) than in Israel. I tend to think that the official notion of basic human equality, or civil equality, pretty much part of American culture since the Civil Rights era, is viewed as somewhat quaint in Israel, to say the least. That's not what they're referring to when "shared values" are invoked, at least not beyond Israel's claim to be democratic in the most procedural sense--not that we have a vibrant democracy in this country.

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From: Ricky Baldwin <baldwinricky at yahoo.com>
To: peace discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2009 11:52:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Anti-racism

Good discussion, and very interesting poll, Carl.  I have to say, I missed your point at first read, Dave.  You're saying that prejudice against Arabs or Muslims doesn't serve the same function in the US as in Israel, due to the smaller proportion of troops involved in US operations against Arabs/Muslims, right?  Of course it does serve a political purpose, justifying our shining democracy in its effect overseas, etc., but the face-to-face variety racism is always a bit different than the racism at a distance.  (For example I notice a difference in attitudes here toward Native Americans, compared to Western NY or Philadelphia, MS, where contact is daily, and the "threat" of some marginal power in the community more immediate.)  Neither is good, honestly, but there are differences worth exploring - and maybe we can do that here.  But you're saying Americans don't generally share these racist attitudes about Arabs/Muslims, these reflected in Carl's
 poll?  

I haven't seen a similar poll of Americans - maybe one of you more educated researchers has one - but I'd be a little surprised if there weren't some similarities.

Not sure I agree with your definition of racism, though, Carl, or rather your narrowing of the definition.  Words generally mean what the speakers of the language in question think they mean, and here I have to agree (mostly) with my dictionary, and Wikipedia (god help me), that racism primarily refers to a belief system or doctrine of racial superiority or difference - although I think when people talk about racism, they are often thinking of this primary sense muddled up a bit with a second sense, which is more institutional.  Not that definitions are the root of the issue, but the distinction is worth making, as Carl does.  But I think there is more to it.  We can distinguish 'institutional racism' (in the common parlance, I believe), which would include the legal discrimination (we were taught to call it 'de jure' in school) you mention, Carl, but also a kind of economic racism, which is always the hardest to argue about in my opinion (it may
 include what we were taught to call 'de facto' discrimination).

And I don't think that 'institutional' racism (in the broader sense, not just overt legal discrimination) is as much a thing of the past in the US as many of us white people might experience, whatever our connections to people of other colors.  Carl mentions Native Americans, still experiencing the economic effects of stolen lands and livelihoods - is this 'legal' racism?  It's complex, I think.  If the legal system still upholds the theft, then in a way, yes.  There are of course many more issues related to treaty rights - theoretically legal rights that are ignored by our bastion-of-respect-for-the-law government - are these 'legal discrimination'?  Not in the sense that there is a law that says, "No dogs or Indians allowed," but the problem is a lot bigger than prejudice in people's hearts.

African Americans I know still describe not being served in restaurants, or being told the gas station doesn't have a public restroom while their white companions get to use the facilities.  This is prejudice, but if it's frequent enough it begins to have an economic impact.  When home buyers or renters are shown places in different parts of town (just coincidentally correlated to the color of their skin?) it may result from prejudice, more or less, but it has a dramatic impact on our society in a number of ways - in education, access to jobs, crime, relations with police, etc. - which may not be 'de jure' discrimination exactly, but it's pretty damn real - and some of it, like who gets charged with what and which crimes incur harsher penalties, certainly involves the law.

I doubt that you meant to imply that these problems aren't real.  But racism is I think a sort of hydra that bears more examination.  Glad you brought it up.

Ricky

"Speak your mind even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn 

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From: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
To: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2009 8:59:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Anti-racism

On the original point, I would suggest two perspectives that are ironically related. The U.S. does much more damage in the Middle East and the world than does Israel (notwithstanding that Israel's damage is done with indispensable American support). But we have 300 million people and need only a fraction of those, most secured by a poverty draft, in order to do what we do, and do it far away from our shores, out of sight and whenever possible out of mind. That mitigates the racial/religious prejudice that does exist in relation to Arabs/Muslims; as well as the fact that they are not an economically marginalized group in this country.

At this point, in all of Israel/Palestine, there are about 5 million Jews and 5 million Arabs, more or less. The Arabs are within and around Israel, all controlled by Israel. That's one Israeli controlling one Arab, a largely universally conscripted army, an occupation with checkpoints, Palestinians being used by Israeli soldiers as human shields in Gaza and the West Bank, etc. I would suggest that in this intimate context racial prejudice is intensified just as a defense mechanism against what has become normalized dehumanization, as well as in the usual sense in terms of justifying domination. While most Israelis don't participate in overt repression on a daily basis, most participate at some point in their lives, or have a family member/friend who does. There is not even lip service paid to "equal opportunity" for Arab Israelis, (although their condition relative to the Arab world is used for propaganda purposes by supporters of Israel).
 Rationalization for this has to be integrated into Israeli culture. Thus the figures that Carl cites, also reflecting ongoing political events and the so-called "rise of the right," as if Israel is not a right-wing political culture by definition.

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From: Marti Wilkinson <martiwilki at gmail.com>
To: C. G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu>
Cc: peace-discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2009 8:11:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Anti-racism

On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 7:58 AM, C. G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu> wrote:

Wouldn't it betray a "privileged mindset" so easily to set aside, say, the victories against racism of the US civil rights movement, by saying that that racism wasn't different from racial prejudice?

Nope, in fact citing the victories of the Civil Rights movement overlooks the fact that marginalized groups still face many uphill battles in the United States. It's a convenient form of denial that perpetuates the myth that racism is a thing of the past. 

Marti Wilkinson wrote:

For many people racism is not something that can be separated from racial prejudice, and it can be argued that even attempting to make such a distinction is consistent with a privileged mindset.

On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 8:23 PM, C. G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu <mailto:galliher at illinois.edu>> wrote:

   [Racism refers to legal structures that penalize groups defined by
   descent. Racial prejudice refers to censorious attitudes towards
   groups defined by descent.  Both are present in Israel. Racism, but
   not racial prejudice, is now largely absent in the US (altho' some,
   like native Americans, may justly not think so).  --CGE]

          March 4, 2009
          SEGREGATION IN ISRAEL

   Israeli Association for Civil Rights

   Some 55 percent of Jewish Israelis say that the state should
   encourage Arab emigration;

   78 percent of Jewish Israelis oppose including Arab parties in the
   government;

   56 percent agree with the statement that 'Arabs cannot attain the
   Jewish level of cultural development'

   75 percent agree that Arabs are inclined to be violent. Among
   Arab-Israelis, 54 percent feel the same way about Jews.

   75 percent of Israeli Jews say they would not live in the same
   building as Arabs.

   http://prorev.com/2009/03/segregation-in-israel.html
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