[Peace-discuss] More about The Lobby
Morton K. Brussel
brussel at illinois.edu
Thu Mar 12 12:00:52 CDT 2009
Remarks follow
I'll wait for an explanation as to why and how Charles Schumer
undermines U.S. interests. In fact, he supports them.
> Schumer sees Israel's interests as U.S. interests. That does not
prove they are U.S. interests. Read Freeman's indictment of such as
Schumer.
Ideological unity regarding support for Israel is a centerpiece of
American policy in the ME, agreed to by both parties.
> To a large extent because of the the Lobby's propaganda and
political muscle. Are you not turning things upside down?
Any genuine support for a viable Palestinian state, which would dispel
the myth of "endangered Israel," will have to be accompanied by a
"change of course"; that is, a pragmatic re-assessment of alliances,
such as was done with Libya.
> I would argue that Libya changed its tunes, not particularly the
U.S. .
If this is done vis a vis Hizbollah/Syria, then we will magically
see an accommodation with the Palestinians regardless of the Israel
Lobby, which will indeed support it, and moreover will claim that that
was what they supported all along, and that they were the ones who
thought of it.
> The problem is that the Lobby hinders any alignment which goes
against what Israel says. Yes, if Israel changed course, things would
indeed improve, but that is just the problem.
The CEO's of the corporations Chomsky mentions might also find
opportunities to invest in Indonesia, the Philippines, Abu Dabei(?),
…. Perhaps they are are not unaware of this; they could be making a
mistake by investing in Israel, but are willing to take short term
gains when they are offered.
The interests of these corporations are not congruent with the broader
interests of the USA, and this is what the many critics of the Lobby
are referring to. I would guess that many corporations are not that
happy with the situation, and will be less so if divestment and
boycott becomes significant. Others, including our Congress, abetted
by the Lobby with its money and media influence (read NYT, WP, WSJ)
refuse to admit this.
--mkb
On Mar 12, 2009, at 8:59 AM, David Green wrote:
>
> I'll wait for an explanation as to why and how Charles Schumer
> undermines U.S. interests. In fact, he supports them. Ideological
> unity regarding support for Israel is a centerpiece of American
> policy in the ME, agreed to by both parties. Any genuine support for
> a viable Palestinian state, which would dispel the myth of
> "endangered Israel," will have to be accompanied by a "change of
> course"; that is, a pragmatic re-assessment of alliances, such as
> was done with Libya. If this is done vis a vis Hizbollah/Syria, then
> we will magically see an accommodation with the Palestinians
> regardless of the Israel Lobby, which will indeed support it, and
> moreover will claim that that was what they supported all along, and
> that they were the ones who thought of it.
>
> DG
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: C. G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu>
> To: John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
> Cc: Brussel Morton K. <mkbrussel at comcast.net>; peace-discuss Discuss
> <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 5:00:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] More about The Lobby
>
> Because reasonable people know it wouldn't get anywhere. US policy
> is determined
> by the interaction of power centers within the American elite, not
> by the agents
> of a Mideast state, working against those interests (= "the US
> national interest").
>
>
> John W. wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 4:41 AM, C. G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu
>> <mailto:galliher at illinois.edu>> wrote:
>>
>> Israel has its own vicious agenda, as Chomsky is among the first to
>> point
>> out. But it would not be able to enact it without the US.
>>
>> Other people write well on this matter, but Chomsky has been doing it
>> particularly well, for a long time. It's hard to equal "Fateful
>> Triangle:
>> The United States, Israel, and the Palestinians" (1983), updated
>> ten years
>> ago, and that's only one among many.
>>
>> Chomsky points out that the debates over the Lobby "are paralyzing.
>> They have
>> no implications for activism, except one. If the claims are
>> correct, then
>> I’ve been wasting my time for years in talking, writing, organizing,
>> activism. I should instead put on a tie and jacket and go to the
>> corporate
>> headquarters of Intel, Microsoft, Lockheed Martin, and a host of
>> other major
>> corporations investing in Israel, and should explain to them,
>> politely, that
>> they are harming their interests by doing so, and should use their
>> political
>> and economic power to put the lobby out of business, as they can do
>> in five
>> minutes. No one adopts that tactic. But why?"
>>
>>
>>
>> Why indeed?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brussel Morton K. wrote:
>>
>>
>> You dodge the point that Ray McGovern, and others, are making in a
>> kind of obsession to attack the U.S.—and now seemingly Obama
>> policies— (which in other contexts deserves your condemnation),
>> overlook the influence of the Lobby who the more astute (like
>> McGovern) recognize as pernicious and effective, and excuse Israeli
>> policies by suggesting that they are simply puppets of the U.S.
>> It's bait and switch, once more.
>>
>> Your concluding paragraph leaves the impression that Israel does
>> not have its
>> own vicious agenda relative to the Palestinians, Iraq, Iran,
>> Syria, Hezbollah, or Hamas, which seems to me arrant nonsense.
>>
>> Stop worshipping Chomsky; even he has his blinders.. --mkb
>>
>> On Mar 11, 2009, at 9:52 PM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
>>
>> If it weren't such an indication of pathological denial and refusal
>> to note the simple facts, it would be funny -- the insistence of
>> American liberals that the US crimes in SW Asia are the fault of
>> the Bad Jews and their Lobby
>> who have somehow manipulated and misled the Good Obama.
>>
>> What will it take for them to recognize that the murderous policies
>> that the
>> US follows from the Mediterranean to the Indus are American (not
>> Israeli)
>> policies, pursued in the interest of American elites? Obama had been
>> feverishly auditioning to work for them for years: see "The
>> Audacity of Hope"
>> (an honestly self-referential title). He's the jumped-up button-
>> man of the
>> American ascendancy, a Mob lawyer whose client is the greatest Mob
>> of all --
>> the American ruling class.
>>
>> Israel sold its soul to the American Devil years ago -- ca. 1967 --
>> for the mess of pottage (about $4B/yr) that the US provides. The
>> result has been the
>> corruption of Israeli government and society -- perhaps
>> predictable, because
>> of the roots of that society in what has been accurately termed a
>> "settler-colonialist" ruling class.
>>
>> --CGE
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
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