[Peace-discuss] Torturing 'em for Jesus

Mon May 4 13:18:02 CDT 2009

For more on this subject, take a look at:

Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite | Why the Faithful Approve of Torture 
 <http://www.truthout.org/050409N?n> http://www.truthout.org/050409N?n 
Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite, The Washington Post: "The more often you go to
church, the more you approve of torture. This is a troubling finding of a
new survey by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. Shouldn't it be the
opposite? After all, who would Jesus torture? Since Jesus wouldn't even let
Peter use a sword and defend him from arrest, it would seem that those who
follow Jesus would strenuously oppose the violence of torture. But, not so
in America today. Instead, more than half of people who attend worship at
least once a week, or 54%, said that using torture on suspected terrorists
was 'often' or 'sometimes' justified." 

From: peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net
[mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of E. Wayne
Johnson
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 12:42 PM
To: Peace-discuss; ronpaul-305 at meetup.com
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Torturing 'em for Jesus

Last week I said somewhat publicly that the GOP was morally bankrupt because
of its absurdly disingenuous stance on waterboarding and torture.

Bible scholar Laurence M. Vance, author of Christianity and War, (and this
hour-long lecture on the subject - Christianity and War -
<http://www.liberty4urbana.com/drupal-6.8/node/42>  Laurence M. Vance)
had this to say about Christians and torture in a article today at
LewRockwell.com (http://lewrockwell.com/vance/vance170.html) :

Can a Christian waterboard an A-rab for Jesus?

For the Christian, there is no other way to do it.   

The Bible says: "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of
the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him" (Colossians
3:17). It also says that whatsoever we do, we should "do it heartily, as to
the Lord" (Colossians 3:23). We should do everything "to the glory of God"
(1 Corinthians 10:31).

Can a Christian smash someone against a wall in the name of the Lord Jesus?
Can a Christian heartily lock someone in a dark box for hours at a time? Can
a Christian deprive someone of sleep to the glory of God? Can a Christian
give thanks to God while he hangs someone from the ceiling?

Sure he can, but not without violating the whole tenor of the New Testament.

Full text below...

****************

Waterboard an A-rab for Jesus  by Laurence M. Vance

In a recent column <http://www.lewrockwell.com/margolis/margolis145.html> ,
Eric Margolis labeled the Republicans as "America's champion of war and
torture." Those are some harsh words - harsh but true.

The recent release
<http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/16/torture-memos-bush-administrati
on> of the Bush torture memos and the revelation
<http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/20/world/20detain.html>  that the CIA
waterboarded Abu Zubaydah 83 times and Khalid Sheik Mohammed 183 times
before Bush claimed that we don't torture has elicited a predictable
response from conservative Christians who think the Republican Party is the
party of God: silence.

It is also no surprise that a new survey
<http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=156>  by the Pew Research Center for the
People & the Press shows that of four major religious traditions in the
United States (white evangelical Protestant, white non-Hispanic Catholic,
white mainline Protestant, and unaffiliated), white evangelical Protestants
are more likely to believe that the use of torture against suspected
terrorists can often or sometimes be justified. In fact, the more often
people attended church, the more likely they were to justify torture.

A similar <http://pewforum.org/news/rss.php?NewsID=16465>  poll commissioned
last year by Faith in Public Life and Mercer University reported that almost
60 percent of Southern evangelicals believed that torture was often or
sometimes justified.

When the Spanish did it, it was torture. When the Japanese did it, it was
torture. When the Germans did it, it was torture. When the Khmer Rouge did
it, it was torture. But when waterboarding was done by Americans under a
Republican administration, it suddenly became an "enhanced interrogation
technique."

Such has not always been the case. Waterboarding-like techniques used by
American soldiers during the Philippine Insurrection and the Vietnam War
were condemned. But that was before the "war on terror" where anything goes
in the name of "national security."

"Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was not waterboarded 183 times," says a Republican
hack
<http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/28/despite-reports-khalid-sheikh-mo
hammed-waterboarded-times>  at Fox News. That number is "highly misleading"
and a "vast inflation" because "the much-cited figure represents the number
of times water was poured onto Mohammed's face - not the number of times the
CIA applied the simulated-drowning technique on the terror suspect."

Okay, so how many "pours" does take to be waterboarded? If a prisoner is
removed from his cell, taken to an interrogation room, forced to endure one
"pour," and then taken back to his cell - can we not say he was waterboarded
because he only suffered one "pour"?

And what about Abu Zubaydah? In addition to being waterboarded
<http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-margulies30-2009apr30,0,3309097.s
tory> , he had a collar wrapped around his neck, was smashed against a wall,
was forced to stay in a pitch-dark box for hours, was stripped naked, was
suspended from hooks in the ceiling, and was deprived of sleep. Is it not
torture if these things only happened one time?

The strict constitutionalist at Fox, Judge Andrew Napolitano
<http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/04/21/napolitano_torture_memos/feed>
, who actually read the 175 pages of torture memos, sees things differently
from the defenders of the Bush regime at his network: "This is not rocket
science and it is not art. Everyone knows torture when they see it; and no
amount of twisted logic can detract from its illegal horror, its moral
antipathy, and its attack at core American values."

Who are these CIA operatives that engage in waterboarding and other forms of
torture? What kind of a man does such a thing? The FBI does profiles of
serial killers. How about a profile of a CIA agent who tortures prisoners,
in the interest of national security, of course?

Are these men Christians? I suppose they are. The majority of Americans
claim to be a Christian of some sort. Can a Christian waterboard an A-rab
for Jesus?

For the Christian, there is no other way to do it. The Bible says: "And
whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus,
giving thanks to God and the Father by him" (Colossians 3:17). It also says
that whatsoever we do, we should "do it heartily, as to the Lord"
(Colossians 3:23). We should do everything "to the glory of God" (1
Corinthians 10:31).

Can a Christian smash someone against a wall in the name of the Lord Jesus?
Can a Christian heartily lock someone in a dark box for hours at a time? Can
a Christian deprive someone of sleep to the glory of God? Can a Christian
give thanks to God while he hangs someone from the ceiling?

Sure he can, but not without violating the whole tenor of the New Testament.

Christians are told to put off anger, wrath, and malice (Colossians 3:8), to
not render evil for evil (1 Thessalonians 5:15), to not give offense (1
Corinthians 10:30), to abstain from all appearance of evil (1 Thessalonians
5:22), to not be a brawler (Titus 3:2), and to abhor that which is evil
(Romans 12:9). I think this rules out waterboarding.

Okay, but suppose the perpetrators of torture in the CIA do not claim to be
Christians and don't care what the New Testament says? Well, does that mean
it is okay if Christians cheer them on? If not, then what should Christians
do? Should they just be indifferent?

John the Baptist told Herod "It is not lawful for thee to have her" when he
married his brother's wife (Matthew 14:4). He also told Roman soldiers to
"Do violence to no man" (Luke 3:14). Why aren't Christians doing likewise?

Why aren't Christians letting the CIA and the military know that
waterboarding is torture and that torture is wrong? Could it be that these
institutions are filled with Christians? Could it be that Christians respect
these institutions? Could it be that Christians trust these institutions? I
think all of the above are true.

Where is the outrage from the evangelical community over these torture
memos? I'll tell you where. It is in the same place as the outrage over the
invasion of Iraq, the thousands upon thousands of dead Iraqis, the over four
thousand American soldiers who died for a lie, the bloodbath that Iraq has
become, the Guantanamo prison camp, the CIA secret prisons, the destruction
of liberty in America due to the war on terror, and America's evil foreign
policy.

Christians should be leaving the Republican Party in droves. Christians
should be crawling on broken glass as penance for blindly supporting the
Republican Party. Christians should be repenting in sackcloth and ashes for
thinking the Republican Party was the party of God.

Instead, even as more and more crimes of the Bush administration come to
light, I fear that Christians who are outraged, and rightly so, at the
crimes of the Obama administration and the Democrats will look in the next
election to the Republicans as their savior instead of the champions of war
and torture.

America needs more Christians like John the Baptist instead of John Hagee.

May 4, 2009

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