[Peace-discuss] Torturing 'em for Jesus

[E. Wayne Johnson]

The truthout article is good to read for the statistics, and I do agree 
with the author's premise about loyalty to the GOP line.

Susan Brooks says it's because the churches teach violence. I don't buy 
it as much of a factor, because the churches are hardly the sole purveyors.
(I didn't see Passion of the Christ, but I did see the Mad Max series 
and the Lethal Weapon series).

I would say that it is "...a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, 
nor a thirst for water, but a famine for hearing the words of the Lord." 
- Amos 8.11


On 5/4/2009 1:18 PM, LAURIE SOLOMON wrote:
>
> For more on this subject, take a look at:
>
> *Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite | Why the Faithful Approve of Torture *
> http://www.truthout.org/050409N?n
> Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite, The Washington Post: "The more often you 
> go to church, the more you approve of torture. This is a troubling 
> finding of a new survey by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. 
> Shouldn't it be the opposite? After all, who would Jesus torture? 
> Since Jesus wouldn't even let Peter use a sword and defend him from 
> arrest, it would seem that those who follow Jesus would strenuously 
> oppose the violence of torture. But, not so in America today. Instead, 
> more than half of people who attend worship at least once a week, or 
> 54%, said that using torture on suspected terrorists was 'often' or 
> 'sometimes' justified."
>
> *From:* peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net 
> [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] *On Behalf Of *E. 
> Wayne Johnson
> *Sent:* Monday, May 04, 2009 12:42 PM
> *To:* Peace-discuss; ronpaul-305 at meetup.com
> *Subject:* [Peace-discuss] Torturing 'em for Jesus
>
> Last week I said somewhat publicly that the GOP was morally bankrupt 
> because of its absurdly disingenuous stance on waterboarding and torture.
>
> Bible scholar Laurence M. Vance, author of Christianity and War, (and 
> this hour-long lecture on the subject - Christianity and War - 
> Laurence M. Vance <http://www.liberty4urbana.com/drupal-6.8/node/42>)
> had this to say about Christians and torture in a article today at 
> LewRockwell.com (http://lewrockwell.com/vance/vance170.html) :
>
>
> Can a Christian waterboard an A-rab for Jesus?
>
> For the Christian, there is no other way to do it.
>
>     The Bible says: "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in
>     the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by
>     him" (Colossians 3:17). It also says that whatsoever we do, we
>     should "do it heartily, as to the Lord" (Colossians 3:23). We
>     should do everything "to the glory of God" (1 Corinthians 10:31).
>
>     Can a Christian smash someone against a wall in the name of the
>     Lord Jesus? Can a Christian heartily lock someone in a dark box
>     for hours at a time? Can a Christian deprive someone of sleep to
>     the glory of God? Can a Christian give thanks to God while he
>     hangs someone from the ceiling?
>
>     Sure he can, but not without violating the whole tenor of the New
>     Testament.
>
> Full text below...
>
>
> ****************
>
>
> Waterboard an A-rab for Jesus  by Laurence M. Vance
>
>
>
> In a recent column 
> <http://www.lewrockwell.com/margolis/margolis145.html>, Eric Margolis 
> labeled the Republicans as "America's champion of war and torture." 
> Those are some harsh words -- harsh but true.
>
> The recent release 
> <http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/16/torture-memos-bush-administration>of 
> the Bush torture memos and the revelation 
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/20/world/20detain.html> that the CIA 
> waterboarded Abu Zubaydah 83 times and Khalid Sheik Mohammed 183 times 
> /before/ Bush claimed that we don't torture has elicited a predictable 
> response from conservative Christians who think the Republican Party 
> is the party of God: silence.
>
> It is also no surprise that a new survey 
> <http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=156> by the Pew Research Center for 
> the People & the Press shows that of four major religious traditions 
> in the United States (white evangelical Protestant, white non-Hispanic 
> Catholic, white mainline Protestant, and unaffiliated), white 
> evangelical Protestants are more likely to believe that the use of 
> torture against suspected terrorists can often or sometimes be 
> justified. In fact, the more often people attended church, the more 
> likely they were to justify torture.
>
> A similar poll <http://pewforum.org/news/rss.php?NewsID=16465> 
> commissioned last year by Faith in Public Life and Mercer University 
> reported that almost 60 percent of Southern evangelicals believed that 
> torture was often or sometimes justified.
>
> When the Spanish did it, it was torture. When the Japanese did it, it 
> was torture. When the Germans did it, it was torture. When the Khmer 
> Rouge did it, it was torture. But when waterboarding was done by 
> Americans under a Republican administration, it suddenly became an 
> "enhanced interrogation technique."
>
> Such has not always been the case. Waterboarding-like techniques used 
> by American soldiers during the Philippine Insurrection and the 
> Vietnam War were condemned. But that was before the "war on terror" 
> where anything goes in the name of "national security."
>
> "Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was not waterboarded 183 times," says a 
> Republican hack 
> <http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/28/despite-reports-khalid-sheikh-mohammed-waterboarded-times> 
> at Fox News. That number is "highly misleading" and a "vast inflation" 
> because "the much-cited figure represents the number of times water 
> was poured onto Mohammed's face -- not the number of times the CIA 
> applied the simulated-drowning technique on the terror suspect."
>
> Okay, so how many "pours" does take to be waterboarded? If a prisoner 
> is removed from his cell, taken to an interrogation room, forced to 
> endure one "pour," and then taken back to his cell -- can we not say 
> he was waterboarded because he only suffered one "pour"?
>
> And what about Abu Zubaydah? In addition to being waterboarded 
> <http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-margulies30-2009apr30,0,3309097.story>, 
> he had a collar wrapped around his neck, was smashed against a wall, 
> was forced to stay in a pitch-dark box for hours, was stripped naked, 
> was suspended from hooks in the ceiling, and was deprived of sleep. Is 
> it not torture if these things only happened one time?
>
> The strict constitutionalist at Fox, Judge Andrew Napolitano 
> <http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/04/21/napolitano_torture_memos/feed>, 
> who actually read the 175 pages of torture memos, sees things 
> differently from the defenders of the Bush regime at his network: 
> "This is not rocket science and it is not art. Everyone knows torture 
> when they see it; and no amount of twisted logic can detract from its 
> illegal horror, its moral antipathy, and its attack at core American 
> values."
>
> Who are these CIA operatives that engage in waterboarding and other 
> forms of torture? What kind of a man does such a thing? The FBI does 
> profiles of serial killers. How about a profile of a CIA agent who 
> tortures prisoners, in the interest of national security, of course?
>
> Are these men Christians? I suppose they are. The majority of 
> Americans claim to be a Christian of some sort. Can a Christian 
> waterboard an A-rab for Jesus?
>
> For the Christian, there is no other way to do it. The Bible says: 
> "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord 
> Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him" (Colossians 3:17). 
> It also says that whatsoever we do, we should "do it heartily, as to 
> the Lord" (Colossians 3:23). We should do everything "to the glory of 
> God" (1 Corinthians 10:31).
>
> Can a Christian smash someone against a wall in the name of the Lord 
> Jesus? Can a Christian heartily lock someone in a dark box for hours 
> at a time? Can a Christian deprive someone of sleep to the glory of 
> God? Can a Christian give thanks to God while he hangs someone from 
> the ceiling?
>
> Sure he can, but not without violating the whole tenor of the New 
> Testament.
>
> Christians are told to put off anger, wrath, and malice (Colossians 
> 3:8), to not render evil for evil (1 Thessalonians 5:15), to not give 
> offense (1 Corinthians 10:30), to abstain from all appearance of evil 
> (1 Thessalonians 5:22), to not be a brawler (Titus 3:2), and to abhor 
> that which is evil (Romans 12:9). I think this rules out waterboarding.
>
> Okay, but suppose the perpetrators of torture in the CIA do not claim 
> to be Christians and don't care what the New Testament says? Well, 
> does that mean it is okay if Christians cheer them on? If not, then 
> what should Christians do? Should they just be indifferent?
>
> John the Baptist told Herod "It is not lawful for thee to have her" 
> when he married his brother's wife (Matthew 14:4). He also told Roman 
> soldiers to "Do violence to no man" (Luke 3:14). Why aren't Christians 
> doing likewise?
>
> Why aren't Christians letting the CIA and the military know that 
> waterboarding is torture and that torture is wrong? Could it be that 
> these institutions are filled with Christians? Could it be that 
> Christians respect these institutions? Could it be that Christians 
> trust these institutions? I think all of the above are true.
>
> Where is the outrage from the evangelical community over these torture 
> memos? I'll tell you where. It is in the same place as the outrage 
> over the invasion of Iraq, the thousands upon thousands of dead 
> Iraqis, the over four thousand American soldiers who died for a lie, 
> the bloodbath that Iraq has become, the Guantanamo prison camp, the 
> CIA secret prisons, the destruction of liberty in America due to the 
> war on terror, and America's evil foreign policy.
>
> Christians should be leaving the Republican Party in droves. 
> Christians should be crawling on broken glass as penance for blindly 
> supporting the Republican Party. Christians should be repenting in 
> sackcloth and ashes for thinking the Republican Party was the party of 
> God.
>
> Instead, even as more and more crimes of the Bush administration come 
> to light, I fear that Christians who are outraged, and rightly so, at 
> the crimes of the Obama administration and the Democrats will look in 
> the next election to the Republicans as their savior instead of the 
> champions of war and torture.
>
> America needs more Christians like John the Baptist instead of John 
> Hagee.
>
> /May 4, 2009/
>

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