[Peace-discuss] Tony's comments
E. Wayne Johnson
ewj at pigs.ag
Mon Oct 19 10:04:18 CDT 2009
So Stewart walks across Afghanistan and decides, with deep
understanding...oh, these people need a Western Occupation Force for 20
or 30 years, and let's make the decision about the size of the force
based upon the political expediency of warmongering and imperialism in
America...
On 10/19/2009 9:32 AM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
> [David Gill says that he supports the policy set out by Rory Stewart
> on Bill Moyers' TV show. Here it is. --CGE]
>
>
> STEWART: I'd like to go to [the military] and say, "Listen, you're not
> going to be able to have 600,000 troops. You're not going to be able
> to stay for 40 years. So, let's just turn this around. Let's say
> you've only got 10,000, you've only got 20,000, but we can maintain it
> for 20 or 30 years. What would you be able to do?" And my guess is,
> they'd come back and say, "Okay, with that, we can probably make sure
> that Osama Bin Laden never again sets up a major training camp in
> Afghanistan"...
>
> My advice to President Obama is, you're going to have to increase
> troops now. It's too late for you, because you're going to be
> destroyed politically if you oppose your general on the ground on
> something like this...
>
> http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09252009/transcript1.html
>
>
> David Gill wrote:
>> Again the mis-statements and distortions:
>>
>> Mr. Estabrook reduces Mr. Stewart's work to "walked across
>> Afghanistan"; he
>> ignores the far more important point: "...interacting at length with
>> thousands of people who live within the villages of Afghanistan..."
>> It is
>> those countless hours of contact with actual Afghani villagers which
>> permits
>> Mr. Stewart a far better understanding of the situation there than
>> anyone
>> possesses here in central Illinois.
>>
>> And Mr. Estabrook states that I support "...a continuation of the
>> killing..."
>> No, the exact opposite is true-- I support the prevention of
>> killing. My
>> entire life's work has been devoted to maintaining life and providing
>> comfort
>> to my fellow man. The work of Special Operations is far more diverse
>> than
>> described here by Mr. Estabrook.
>>
>> I'll soon be leaving your listserv, Mr. Estabrook. I would encourage
>> you to
>> stay closer to the truth in the future. And to the other readers,
>> whether
>> Mr. Estabrook likes it or not, our current Congressman brought you
>> the war in
>> Iraq, and he quietly sat by for eight years while the war in
>> Afghanistan was
>> expanded-- "developing principle" only when a majority of the
>> American public
>> had finally seen the truth of the matter there. When the next conflict
>> begins, if 80% of voters in Illinois-15 support it, Career Politician
>> Mr.
>> Johnson will again be screaming "We have to kill them there before
>> they kill
>> us here."
>>
>> David Gill
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ---- From: C. G. Estabrook
>> <galliher at illinois.edu> To:
>> David Gill <docgill37 at yahoo.com> Cc: unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net>;
>> Peace-discuss List <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> Sent: Sun,
>> October 18,
>> 2009 2:42:47 PM Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tony's comments
>>
>> Rory Stewart is undoubtedly a Brit, and I'd suggest reading what he's
>> written
>> and what's been written about him to see whether I'm justified in
>> calling
>> him "peculiar." (I'll append the URLs.)
>>
>> It's more disturbing that David Gill prefers Stewart's views to those of
>> "anyone ... on this listserv" because he (Stewart) walked across
>> Afghanistan
>> and wrote a book about it. Perhaps on the strength of that book,
>> Stewart was
>> recently appointed head of the Carr Center, a think tank in the Kennedy
>> School at Harvard and a well-known locus for the support of liberal
>> interventionism; its best-known director wrote in favor of torture
>> during the
>> Iraq war.
>>
>> What's being said is more important than who's saying it, and Stewart
>> (and
>> Gill) say that they are in favor of the continuation of the killing
>> by "a
>> relatively small number [namely, 10,000 to 20,000] of Special Operations
>> Forces." Special operations are specifically assassination and the
>> establishment of death squads, and the director of these operations,
>> Stanley
>> McChrystal, was appointed by Obama to be his overall commander in
>> Afghanistan.
>>
>> That's certainly a substantial involvement in Afghan "internal
>> decisions." I
>> (and apparently an increasing number of Americans) prefer a
>> withdrawal of American troops -- which (in contrast to Congressional
>> candidate Gill) seems
>> to be supported by Representatives Ron Paul (R-TX), Jim McGovern (D-MA),
>> Jerry Costello (D-IL 12), and Tim Johnson (D-IL 15). --CGE
>>
>>
>> By and about Rory Stewart:
>> <http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n13/stew01_.html>;
>> <http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/c7414148-7d60-11de-b8ee-00144feabdc0.html>; and
>> <http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/may/17/rory-stewart-afghanistan-traditional-skills>.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> David Gill wrote:
>>> Estabrook needlessly editorializes when describing Stewart as a
>>> "peculiar
>>> Brit". Once more, I repeat, when Estabrook or anyone else on this
>>> listserv
>>> has spent time interacting at length with thousands of people who live
>>> within the villages of Afghanistan, perhaps then they might have a
>>> thorough
>>> understanding of how best to minimize hardship in the lives of the
>>> Afghani
>>> people.
>>>
>>> As for the forgiving of Mr. Johnson: based on his history, I have
>>> little
>>> doubt, that when the next conflict is being debated, that if it is
>>> strongly
>>> supported by the American public, that Mr. Johnson will be fully
>>> behind it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regarding Iraq: I was publicly against our involvement there from
>>> the time
>>> I began my initial campaign in December, 2002, and I have always
>>> opposed
>>> our involvement there.t's certainly
>>>
>>> Regarding Afghanistan, I oppose the concept of "nation-building" there
>>> through military action, and I view issues related to the Taliban as
>>> items
>>> that should be dealt with by the Afghani people themselves-- their
>>> opinions
>>> of the Taliban vary widely, and I don't think it is the business of
>>> America
>>> to be involved with their internal decisions.
>>>
>>> I support drawing down American forces, leaving in place a
>>> relatively small
>>> number of Special Operations Forces, to prevent the re-establishment of
>>> Al-Qaida training camps. I would encourage all to watch the
>>> interview with
>>> Rory Stewart on "Bill Moyers Journal" :
>>> http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09252009/profile.html
>>>
>>> David Gill
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ---- From: C. G. Estabrook
>>> <galliher at illinois.edu>
>>> To: unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net> Cc: Peace-discuss List
>>> <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>; David Gill <docgill37 at yahoo.com>
>>> Sent:
>>> Sat, October 17, 2009 4:36:00 PM Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tony's
>>> comments
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No, he doesn't.
>>>
>>> He supports some version of Obama's war -- by "10,000 to 20,000 special
>>> operations forces in [Afghanistan] to prevent any further expansion of
>>> al-Qaida."
>>>
>>> He says he "respects the opinion on the subject [of] Mr. [Rory]
>>> Stewart."
>>> Stewart, a peculiar Brit, walked across Afghanistan and wrote a book
>>> about
>>> it: he has no principled objection to the occupation of Afghanistan,
>>> but he
>>> doesn't think the US (and the UK) are doing it very well.
>>>
>>> Stewart now heads that propaganda mill, the Carr Center at Harvard, the
>>> ornament of which is the awful Samantha Power, apologist for
>>> Clinton's war
>>> on Serbia. (The former director was the even worse Michael
>>> Ignatieff.) For
>>> more on Stewart's views, see
>>>
>>> <http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/c7414148-7d60-11de-b8ee-00144feabdc0.html>;
>>> and
>>> <http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/may/17/rory-stewart-afghanistan-traditional-skills>.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gill is (perhaps unintentionally) misleading when he says that he is
>>> not
>>> "as forgiving toward Mr. Johnson as Mr. Estabrook seems to be." He
>>> knows
>>> perfectly well that I condemned Johnson's views on Iraq when I ran
>>> against
>>> him and afterwards. I haven't changed my views, but Johnson seems
>>> to have
>>> changed his, in that he now calls for withdrawal from Afghanistan --
>>> which
>>> Gill opposes.
>>>
>>> Like many people, Democrats and others, understandably embarrassed
>>> about
>>> their support for murder in Afghanistan now, Gill seems to prefer to
>>> talk
>>> about the actions of the previous administration. --CGE
>>>
>>>
>>> unionyes wrote:
>>>> So what is your position on Afganistan ?
>>>>
>>>> Maybe I was misinformed !
>>>>
>>>> Do you support a TOTAL U.S. military ( including the U.S.
>>>> government paid
>>>> mercenaries, Blackwater et al. ) withdrawl from BOTH Afganistan and
>>>> Iraq
>>>> ?
>>>>
>>>> David J.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Gill"
>>>> <docgill37 at yahoo.com> To:
>>>> "unionyes" <unionyes at ameritech.net> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009
>>>> 11:53
>>>> PM Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tony's comments
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> David J.: Not at all clear how you've dragged me into being a
>>>> supporter
>>>> of the occupation of Iraq-- I've publicly viewed this as a farce since
>>>> before its inception. And the consequences of that occupation are
>>>> far too
>>>> calamitous for me to be as forgiving toward Mr. Johnson as Mr.
>>>> Estabrook
>>>> seems to be.
>>>>
>>>> To repeat: there is no "party line" into which I buy. When any of you
>>>> walk from one end of Afghanistan to the other, by yourself, and
>>>> spend the
>>>> time first-hand with an extremely wide variety of Afghani people,
>>>> in 500
>>>> villages, I'll likely accord the same respect to your opinion on the
>>>> subject as I currently do Mr. Stewart's.
>>>>
>>>> David Gill
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ---- From: unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net>
>>>> To:
>>>> Peace-discuss List <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> Sent: Fri,
>>>> October
>>>> 16, 2009 6:14:02 PM Subject: Fw: [Peace-discuss] Tony's comments
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "unionyes" <unionyes at ameritech.net>
>>>> To: <illyes at illinois.edu> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 6:11 PM
>>>> Subject:
>>>> Re: [Peace-discuss] Tony's comments
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Bob,
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's be objective about this !
>>>>>
>>>>> WE ( The U.S. Government ) have NO right to have invaded
>>>>> Afganistan and
>>>>> WE certainly do NOT have ANY right to continue to occupy THEIR
>>>>> country
>>>>> !
>>>>>
>>>>> Gill is excellent on the Health Care issue, BUT, he is buying into
>>>>> the
>>>>> " party line " about the continued corporate imperialistic occupation
>>>>> of BOTH Afganistan and Iraq !
>>>>>
>>>>> The wars of terror ( NOT the war on terror ) is continueing and being
>>>>> EXPANDED under Obama, and you know Bob as well as I do, that the
>>>>> money,
>>>>> murder, and mayhem, that we perpetuate abroad, is that much less that
>>>>> is available to spend here at " home " ( in the U.S. ) for Health
>>>>> Care,
>>>>> Green Jobs, etc..
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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