[Discuss] [Peace-discuss] Police policy on lethal force

Sat Oct 24 00:48:05 CDT 2009

Challenging colonizing behaviors and white privilege is something that needs
to be directed at more than just "white conservatives". Even many self
described white liberals can fail to see how their own constructions of
privilege can have an impact on engaging in working towards equality and
social justice. One of the best descriptions I've come across recently
describes being white as comparable to having a job with union protections
and benefiting from the protections even without formal or overt membership
to the union.

In some of my own comments to the city council I remarked that, as a white
woman, I have some options open to me that I can take for granted. While I
live in Garden Hills I can easily pack up my stuff and move into an area
like Cherry Hills or an "exclusive" community and it's unlikely that anyone
will question my presence. If I have a bad experience with the police I can
also utilize resources to engage in due process.

A woman stopped me at the grocery store and thanked me for telling our mayor
that while he had my cooperation he sure as HELL did not have my respect.
She recognized me from the meeting on Tuesday night. I have to wonder though
if being a white female made it possible for me to say the things that I did
without being labeled 'uppity' as a result.

When we refer to young black individuals as being unruly, undisciplined, and
lacking in obedience this is language that is not too far removed from what
was used to justify slavery and later Jim Crow standards. The theft of land
and culture by Europeans was made possible through flawed ideological
constructs and, like it or not, most of us who are white carry elements of
it within us.

I don't know if I would consider racism to be a 'choice' - it's much much
deeper than that and involves making shifts and adjustments in our basic
core values. Some of the hateful comments I have read in the NG, Illini
Pundit, and other places come from a paradigm of values. The basic recurring
theme is if these two black kids should have just shown obedience, respect,
and they wouldn't have had our trusted authority figures draw a deadly
weapon on them. None of these individuals are inclined to question the
values or the integrity of an officer who pulls out a loaded gun in a
situation where no one is in mortal or grave danger.

Somehow I wonder if we will ever really be able to stop situations like what
happened to Kiwane, but I have to keep trying or risk losing my own soul and
that is how I feel right now...Marti

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Mikhail Lyubansky <lyubanskym at gmail.com>wrote:

> Quick clarification: When I said "maybe there's no alternative to force" I
> meant "political force" and "community pressure".
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Mikhail Lyubansky <lyubanskym at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I know you speak the truth, John. I've seen it happen all too often, but
>> it's heartbreaking each time. Words fail me too in expressing the sadness I
>> feel in reading about your mom's reaction.  There is not a word in your
>> characterization of racism with which I would take issue. I particularly
>> agree with the notion that racism is ultimately a choice and I too cannot
>> (and do not want to) excuse it. If I gave that impression, then I have not
>> communicated with sufficient clarity.
>>
>> I also agree that white allies can do the most good and are most effective
>> in working within their own community (i.e., with other white people).
>> Though I realize (and am very glad) that there are people of color on this
>> list, I generally target my writing to a white audience.  It's not that I
>> don't want to communicate with people of color. I do. Indeed, I always
>> welcome their reaction to my writing, because if my ideas/strategies are not
>> aligned with their goals, then there is obviously something seriously wrong
>> with my approach.  But in terms of who I hope to influence, my intended
>> audience consists of progressive and moderately conservative white Americans
>>
>> The one point with which I do not agree, however, is your implication that
>> white people are not capable of moving away from a racist ideology.  They
>> are.  Or I should say "we are."  I can tell you that I personally think very
>> differently about racial issues than I did 20 years ago, or even 10 years
>> ago.  I suspect that you can look back on your own racial ideology in a
>> similar way.  And I have seen many others, including those who started in a
>> far more racist place than I did, also come a long way.  If you'd like to
>> see what that looks like (and how it was achieved in one weekend), I
>> strongly recommend a documentary film called "The Color of Fear."  And if
>> the circumstances in the film seem contrived (it was a weekend encounter
>> group), please take my word that psychologists have documented similar
>> attitude shifts (albeit not as fast) in many other people and have developed
>> (and are still developing) models that show how white racial identity forms
>> and changes.
>>
>> All that said, my earlier message about allying with the oppressor (as
>> well as with the oppressed) was not intended to facilitate individual
>> change.  It was intended to contribute to community building and healing.
>> White conservatives fear that racial equity is somehow against their own
>> interest.  It's not. Racial equity will lead to better educational outcomes
>> for ALL students, safer neighborhoods for ALL residents, and more
>> opportunities for personal growth and interpersonal relationships for the
>> entire community.  Even the police department has a lot to gain from racial
>> equity in the form of improved police-community relations, including more
>> cooperation from community members.
>>
>> Maybe there is no alternative to force. Melody suggests that dialogue has
>> been tried and shown to be ineffective. But I'm not suggesting dialogue. I'm
>> suggesting a change in how we conceptualize the journey toward racial
>> equity.  I like the "express train" metaphor.  Certainly the matter is
>> urgent! I just think we have to find a way to get everyone -- including the
>> police dept -- to get on board.
>>
>> Mikhail
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 3:19 PM, John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mikhail,
>>>
>>> I read your missive and Nancy Wadsworth's HuffPo article, and I don't
>>> know how to process it.
>>>
>>> Back in the day, Malcolm X advised White people to go back into their own
>>> communities and convince their White counterparts not to be racist.  I tried
>>> it.  Never in life have I ever succeeded in disabusing a racist White person
>>> of a single iota of his/her racism.  Racism is not logical; it's emotional,
>>> deeply ingrained, and systemic.
>>>
>>> When I dared to fall in love with a Black woman back in 1987 - a lovely,
>>> intelligent, educated, caring Black woman whom Melodye knows - my mother
>>> promptly told me that she had no interest in even making her acquaintance.
>>> For two years I tried in vain to convince my mother - a "Christian" woman
>>> who had Black friends, supposedly, and taught Black students who adored her
>>> - that her racial bias was irrational and counterproductive.  She invoked
>>> the Bible, she invoked her reputation in the community, she invoked
>>> everything she could think of to dissuade me.  When she began to threaten me
>>> with disinheritance if I persisted in my "folly", I marched out of her house
>>> and out of her life.  She lived for 20 more years, never relinquishing her
>>> choice of a dead ideology over the love of her only living child.  And yes,
>>> she did disinherit me.
>>>
>>> Having lived through that experience, I can say with certainty that
>>> racism is one of the most evil, virulent, pernicious, toxic poisons known to
>>> man.  It has very real consequences in the real world.  And ultimately,
>>> people CHOOSE it.  I simply can't excuse it.  I'm happy to engage in
>>> dialogue with anyone, but I've never seen an instance where a racist White
>>> person was made less racist through anything that I said.
>>>
>>> Black people can have racial prejudices and stereotypes, too, of course.
>>> But I've found that there are significant and profound differences.  First
>>> of all, Black people have valid historical reasons for any racial prejudices
>>> that they might harbor.  And second, I have found them to be open-minded
>>> enough to give White people, who do NOT deserve it, the benefit of the
>>> doubt.  If a White person proves that he or she can be trusted, Black people
>>> will open their homes and hearts.  Not so with the White people I've known.
>>>
>>> Arrgh, words fail me.
>>>
>>> John Wason
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Mikhail Lyubansky <lyubanskym at gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Melodye,
>>>>
>>>> I am both sad and angry at the comments you describe and regret that you
>>>> elicited that kind of response.  I've never listened to this particular
>>>> show, but anyone who has followed the national discourse around race is all
>>>> too familiar with the "othering" and "condescension" that you describe.  It
>>>> is clear to those of us with some consciousness about the many structural
>>>> and interpersonal ways that nonwhites have historically been and continue to
>>>> be marginalized that white conservatives just don't "get it".  And indeed
>>>> they don't.
>>>>
>>>> But I'd like to suggest that many self-identified liberals and
>>>> progressives don't "get" white conservatives either.  There's a tendency on
>>>> the part of progressives to assume an attitude of moral superiority when
>>>> talking to or about white conservatives, as well as to assume that their
>>>> intentions/goals are to, if not explicitly oppress, at the very least to
>>>> maintain the system of oppression that currently exists.  No doubt this is
>>>> sometimes the case.  But the problem with stereotypes is not that they are
>>>> not true, but that they are incomplete.  There are many white conservatives
>>>> that can and do support the equity and justice goals that progressives tend
>>>> to rally around.  The difference is not over the goals or outcomes but the
>>>> strategies that are supposed to produce those outcomes.
>>>>
>>>> My point is, if we are to move toward the kind of community we want -- a
>>>> community characterized by racial equity and solidarity -- then we have to
>>>> also be willing to listen and understand the "other" in the ways that they
>>>> want to be understood.  As strange as it might seem, I think we have to find
>>>> ways to ally with the oppressive segments of our community so that we can
>>>> begin to understand each other's needs and come to the realization that they
>>>> are not in opposition with each other.
>>>>
>>>> I am not advocating for compromise -- of any sort.  I am not advocating
>>>> for patience.  This is urgent. There is no time for patience. And the needs
>>>> are too important to compromise.  I'm just suggesting that demonizing the
>>>> other side is not likely to get what we want.
>>>>
>>>> This HuffPo writer has some additional thoughts on this that I think are
>>>> worth considering:
>>>> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nancy-wadsworth/down-with-demonology-the_b_318660.html
>>>>
>>>> The writer above is a white woman...and I am (if you don't already know)
>>>> a white man.  As such, I recognize that we speak from a privileged position.
>>>> But our positions (as white progressives whose writing focuses on racial
>>>> issues), also give us a perspective that may have some value.  I offer it
>>>> here in that spirit and look forward to hearing how it is perceived.
>>>>
>>>> Mikhail
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 10:41 AM, Melodye Rosales <
>>>> melodye at nitrogendesign.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Amazing---if anyone caught Penny For Your Thoughts today---all the
>>>>> callers for the last week have spoken as if they know what happened and how
>>>>> bad the kids are because they lack parenting---some spoke of the black
>>>>> community as a whole in that regard. But when I call in today and said that,
>>>>> "... I find it interesting that when Black Folk speak of injustice we are
>>>>> said to be using the race card, but when the callers on your (Turpins) show
>>>>> criticize our community with misnomers and lack of information, they are
>>>>> justified----I think that the community needs Diversity Training."
>>>>>
>>>>> The guy who followed called me "Arrogant".  For those of us (most on
>>>>> this list) who understand what that word means when referring to a Black
>>>>> person, coming from a Conservative White person, it is coded language that
>>>>> needs no Decoder.  Turpin (who seems frustrated I have called daily to
>>>>> correct the mis-statements that he allows to fester) made sure when the
>>>>> caller didn't catch my name, to let him know---more over, let his audience
>>>>> know that I am someone to watch.
>>>>>
>>>>> My concern is that a large majority in the Conservative Community are
>>>>> purposely trying to allow mis-statements to take flight.  It is almost as if
>>>>> they want to sway those who may visit the matter with open eyes, to feel
>>>>> that if they align their concerns with ours, then they somehow aren't caring
>>>>> about the "Good White Community".  The tragedy is that while we are simply
>>>>> trying to push for open government and transparency, while trying to
>>>>> highlight a flawed local government and provide more equitable solutions to
>>>>> bring about a more balanced and inclusive community----these Conservatives
>>>>> are using their energies to push us back into the place they feel we
>>>>> belong------without a voice.  "After all", the Conservatives cry out, "why
>>>>> do them-folk need a voice?  We've always told them what to do, what not to
>>>>> do, where to go, when to come back and how to behave. 'Cause they know we
>>>>> ain't toleratin' no back talk, no complaints, no questions.  So ya see,
>>>>> that's why them-folk don't need no voice. It's them Arrogant Ns who are
>>>>> causing the trouble. They be confusing them-folk.  They be tellin' them-folk
>>>>> they done always had a voice and they just gotta begin using it. Yep, it's
>>>>> them Arrogant Ns who are gonna get them-folk in trouble, not us."
>>>>>
>>>>> What a sad 1950s moment this community is experiencing...
>>>>>
>>>>> -M
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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