[Discuss] [Peace-discuss] Police policy on lethal force

[Mikhail Lyubansky]

Quick clarification: When I said "maybe there's no alternative to force" I
meant "political force" and "community pressure".


On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Mikhail Lyubansky <lyubanskym at gmail.com>wrote:

> I know you speak the truth, John. I've seen it happen all too often, but
> it's heartbreaking each time. Words fail me too in expressing the sadness I
> feel in reading about your mom's reaction.  There is not a word in your
> characterization of racism with which I would take issue. I particularly
> agree with the notion that racism is ultimately a choice and I too cannot
> (and do not want to) excuse it. If I gave that impression, then I have not
> communicated with sufficient clarity.
>
> I also agree that white allies can do the most good and are most effective
> in working within their own community (i.e., with other white people).
> Though I realize (and am very glad) that there are people of color on this
> list, I generally target my writing to a white audience.  It's not that I
> don't want to communicate with people of color. I do. Indeed, I always
> welcome their reaction to my writing, because if my ideas/strategies are not
> aligned with their goals, then there is obviously something seriously wrong
> with my approach.  But in terms of who I hope to influence, my intended
> audience consists of progressive and moderately conservative white Americans
>
> The one point with which I do not agree, however, is your implication that
> white people are not capable of moving away from a racist ideology.  They
> are.  Or I should say "we are."  I can tell you that I personally think very
> differently about racial issues than I did 20 years ago, or even 10 years
> ago.  I suspect that you can look back on your own racial ideology in a
> similar way.  And I have seen many others, including those who started in a
> far more racist place than I did, also come a long way.  If you'd like to
> see what that looks like (and how it was achieved in one weekend), I
> strongly recommend a documentary film called "The Color of Fear."  And if
> the circumstances in the film seem contrived (it was a weekend encounter
> group), please take my word that psychologists have documented similar
> attitude shifts (albeit not as fast) in many other people and have developed
> (and are still developing) models that show how white racial identity forms
> and changes.
>
> All that said, my earlier message about allying with the oppressor (as well
> as with the oppressed) was not intended to facilitate individual change.  It
> was intended to contribute to community building and healing.  White
> conservatives fear that racial equity is somehow against their own
> interest.  It's not. Racial equity will lead to better educational outcomes
> for ALL students, safer neighborhoods for ALL residents, and more
> opportunities for personal growth and interpersonal relationships for the
> entire community.  Even the police department has a lot to gain from racial
> equity in the form of improved police-community relations, including more
> cooperation from community members.
>
> Maybe there is no alternative to force. Melody suggests that dialogue has
> been tried and shown to be ineffective. But I'm not suggesting dialogue. I'm
> suggesting a change in how we conceptualize the journey toward racial
> equity.  I like the "express train" metaphor.  Certainly the matter is
> urgent! I just think we have to find a way to get everyone -- including the
> police dept -- to get on board.
>
> Mikhail
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 3:19 PM, John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Mikhail,
>>
>> I read your missive and Nancy Wadsworth's HuffPo article, and I don't know
>> how to process it.
>>
>> Back in the day, Malcolm X advised White people to go back into their own
>> communities and convince their White counterparts not to be racist.  I tried
>> it.  Never in life have I ever succeeded in disabusing a racist White person
>> of a single iota of his/her racism.  Racism is not logical; it's emotional,
>> deeply ingrained, and systemic.
>>
>> When I dared to fall in love with a Black woman back in 1987 - a lovely,
>> intelligent, educated, caring Black woman whom Melodye knows - my mother
>> promptly told me that she had no interest in even making her acquaintance.
>> For two years I tried in vain to convince my mother - a "Christian" woman
>> who had Black friends, supposedly, and taught Black students who adored her
>> - that her racial bias was irrational and counterproductive.  She invoked
>> the Bible, she invoked her reputation in the community, she invoked
>> everything she could think of to dissuade me.  When she began to threaten me
>> with disinheritance if I persisted in my "folly", I marched out of her house
>> and out of her life.  She lived for 20 more years, never relinquishing her
>> choice of a dead ideology over the love of her only living child.  And yes,
>> she did disinherit me.
>>
>> Having lived through that experience, I can say with certainty that racism
>> is one of the most evil, virulent, pernicious, toxic poisons known to man.
>> It has very real consequences in the real world.  And ultimately, people
>> CHOOSE it.  I simply can't excuse it.  I'm happy to engage in dialogue with
>> anyone, but I've never seen an instance where a racist White person was made
>> less racist through anything that I said.
>>
>> Black people can have racial prejudices and stereotypes, too, of course.
>> But I've found that there are significant and profound differences.  First
>> of all, Black people have valid historical reasons for any racial prejudices
>> that they might harbor.  And second, I have found them to be open-minded
>> enough to give White people, who do NOT deserve it, the benefit of the
>> doubt.  If a White person proves that he or she can be trusted, Black people
>> will open their homes and hearts.  Not so with the White people I've known.
>>
>> Arrgh, words fail me.
>>
>> John Wason
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Mikhail Lyubansky <lyubanskym at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>> Dear Melodye,
>>>
>>> I am both sad and angry at the comments you describe and regret that you
>>> elicited that kind of response.  I've never listened to this particular
>>> show, but anyone who has followed the national discourse around race is all
>>> too familiar with the "othering" and "condescension" that you describe.  It
>>> is clear to those of us with some consciousness about the many structural
>>> and interpersonal ways that nonwhites have historically been and continue to
>>> be marginalized that white conservatives just don't "get it".  And indeed
>>> they don't.
>>>
>>> But I'd like to suggest that many self-identified liberals and
>>> progressives don't "get" white conservatives either.  There's a tendency on
>>> the part of progressives to assume an attitude of moral superiority when
>>> talking to or about white conservatives, as well as to assume that their
>>> intentions/goals are to, if not explicitly oppress, at the very least to
>>> maintain the system of oppression that currently exists.  No doubt this is
>>> sometimes the case.  But the problem with stereotypes is not that they are
>>> not true, but that they are incomplete.  There are many white conservatives
>>> that can and do support the equity and justice goals that progressives tend
>>> to rally around.  The difference is not over the goals or outcomes but the
>>> strategies that are supposed to produce those outcomes.
>>>
>>> My point is, if we are to move toward the kind of community we want -- a
>>> community characterized by racial equity and solidarity -- then we have to
>>> also be willing to listen and understand the "other" in the ways that they
>>> want to be understood.  As strange as it might seem, I think we have to find
>>> ways to ally with the oppressive segments of our community so that we can
>>> begin to understand each other's needs and come to the realization that they
>>> are not in opposition with each other.
>>>
>>> I am not advocating for compromise -- of any sort.  I am not advocating
>>> for patience.  This is urgent. There is no time for patience. And the needs
>>> are too important to compromise.  I'm just suggesting that demonizing the
>>> other side is not likely to get what we want.
>>>
>>> This HuffPo writer has some additional thoughts on this that I think are
>>> worth considering:
>>> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nancy-wadsworth/down-with-demonology-the_b_318660.html
>>>
>>> The writer above is a white woman...and I am (if you don't already know)
>>> a white man.  As such, I recognize that we speak from a privileged position.
>>> But our positions (as white progressives whose writing focuses on racial
>>> issues), also give us a perspective that may have some value.  I offer it
>>> here in that spirit and look forward to hearing how it is perceived.
>>>
>>> Mikhail
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 10:41 AM, Melodye Rosales <
>>> melodye at nitrogendesign.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Amazing---if anyone caught Penny For Your Thoughts today---all the
>>>> callers for the last week have spoken as if they know what happened and how
>>>> bad the kids are because they lack parenting---some spoke of the black
>>>> community as a whole in that regard. But when I call in today and said that,
>>>> "... I find it interesting that when Black Folk speak of injustice we are
>>>> said to be using the race card, but when the callers on your (Turpins) show
>>>> criticize our community with misnomers and lack of information, they are
>>>> justified----I think that the community needs Diversity Training."
>>>>
>>>> The guy who followed called me "Arrogant".  For those of us (most on
>>>> this list) who understand what that word means when referring to a Black
>>>> person, coming from a Conservative White person, it is coded language that
>>>> needs no Decoder.  Turpin (who seems frustrated I have called daily to
>>>> correct the mis-statements that he allows to fester) made sure when the
>>>> caller didn't catch my name, to let him know---more over, let his audience
>>>> know that I am someone to watch.
>>>>
>>>> My concern is that a large majority in the Conservative Community are
>>>> purposely trying to allow mis-statements to take flight.  It is almost as if
>>>> they want to sway those who may visit the matter with open eyes, to feel
>>>> that if they align their concerns with ours, then they somehow aren't caring
>>>> about the "Good White Community".  The tragedy is that while we are simply
>>>> trying to push for open government and transparency, while trying to
>>>> highlight a flawed local government and provide more equitable solutions to
>>>> bring about a more balanced and inclusive community----these Conservatives
>>>> are using their energies to push us back into the place they feel we
>>>> belong------without a voice.  "After all", the Conservatives cry out, "why
>>>> do them-folk need a voice?  We've always told them what to do, what not to
>>>> do, where to go, when to come back and how to behave. 'Cause they know we
>>>> ain't toleratin' no back talk, no complaints, no questions.  So ya see,
>>>> that's why them-folk don't need no voice. It's them Arrogant Ns who are
>>>> causing the trouble. They be confusing them-folk.  They be tellin' them-folk
>>>> they done always had a voice and they just gotta begin using it. Yep, it's
>>>> them Arrogant Ns who are gonna get them-folk in trouble, not us."
>>>>
>>>> What a sad 1950s moment this community is experiencing...
>>>>
>>>> -M
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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