[Discuss] [Peace-discuss] Police policy on lethal force

[Mikhail Lyubansky]

I know you speak the truth, John. I've seen it happen all too often, but
it's heartbreaking each time. Words fail me too in expressing the sadness I
feel in reading about your mom's reaction.  There is not a word in your
characterization of racism with which I would take issue. I particularly
agree with the notion that racism is ultimately a choice and I too cannot
(and do not want to) excuse it. If I gave that impression, then I have not
communicated with sufficient clarity.

I also agree that white allies can do the most good and are most effective
in working within their own community (i.e., with other white people).
Though I realize (and am very glad) that there are people of color on this
list, I generally target my writing to a white audience.  It's not that I
don't want to communicate with people of color. I do. Indeed, I always
welcome their reaction to my writing, because if my ideas/strategies are not
aligned with their goals, then there is obviously something seriously wrong
with my approach.  But in terms of who I hope to influence, my intended
audience consists of progressive and moderately conservative white Americans

The one point with which I do not agree, however, is your implication that
white people are not capable of moving away from a racist ideology.  They
are.  Or I should say "we are."  I can tell you that I personally think very
differently about racial issues than I did 20 years ago, or even 10 years
ago.  I suspect that you can look back on your own racial ideology in a
similar way.  And I have seen many others, including those who started in a
far more racist place than I did, also come a long way.  If you'd like to
see what that looks like (and how it was achieved in one weekend), I
strongly recommend a documentary film called "The Color of Fear."  And if
the circumstances in the film seem contrived (it was a weekend encounter
group), please take my word that psychologists have documented similar
attitude shifts (albeit not as fast) in many other people and have developed
(and are still developing) models that show how white racial identity forms
and changes.

All that said, my earlier message about allying with the oppressor (as well
as with the oppressed) was not intended to facilitate individual change.  It
was intended to contribute to community building and healing.  White
conservatives fear that racial equity is somehow against their own
interest.  It's not. Racial equity will lead to better educational outcomes
for ALL students, safer neighborhoods for ALL residents, and more
opportunities for personal growth and interpersonal relationships for the
entire community.  Even the police department has a lot to gain from racial
equity in the form of improved police-community relations, including more
cooperation from community members.

Maybe there is no alternative to force. Melody suggests that dialogue has
been tried and shown to be ineffective. But I'm not suggesting dialogue. I'm
suggesting a change in how we conceptualize the journey toward racial
equity.  I like the "express train" metaphor.  Certainly the matter is
urgent! I just think we have to find a way to get everyone -- including the
police dept -- to get on board.

Mikhail






On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 3:19 PM, John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Mikhail,
>
> I read your missive and Nancy Wadsworth's HuffPo article, and I don't know
> how to process it.
>
> Back in the day, Malcolm X advised White people to go back into their own
> communities and convince their White counterparts not to be racist.  I tried
> it.  Never in life have I ever succeeded in disabusing a racist White person
> of a single iota of his/her racism.  Racism is not logical; it's emotional,
> deeply ingrained, and systemic.
>
> When I dared to fall in love with a Black woman back in 1987 - a lovely,
> intelligent, educated, caring Black woman whom Melodye knows - my mother
> promptly told me that she had no interest in even making her acquaintance.
> For two years I tried in vain to convince my mother - a "Christian" woman
> who had Black friends, supposedly, and taught Black students who adored her
> - that her racial bias was irrational and counterproductive.  She invoked
> the Bible, she invoked her reputation in the community, she invoked
> everything she could think of to dissuade me.  When she began to threaten me
> with disinheritance if I persisted in my "folly", I marched out of her house
> and out of her life.  She lived for 20 more years, never relinquishing her
> choice of a dead ideology over the love of her only living child.  And yes,
> she did disinherit me.
>
> Having lived through that experience, I can say with certainty that racism
> is one of the most evil, virulent, pernicious, toxic poisons known to man.
> It has very real consequences in the real world.  And ultimately, people
> CHOOSE it.  I simply can't excuse it.  I'm happy to engage in dialogue with
> anyone, but I've never seen an instance where a racist White person was made
> less racist through anything that I said.
>
> Black people can have racial prejudices and stereotypes, too, of course.
> But I've found that there are significant and profound differences.  First
> of all, Black people have valid historical reasons for any racial prejudices
> that they might harbor.  And second, I have found them to be open-minded
> enough to give White people, who do NOT deserve it, the benefit of the
> doubt.  If a White person proves that he or she can be trusted, Black people
> will open their homes and hearts.  Not so with the White people I've known.
>
> Arrgh, words fail me.
>
> John Wason
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Mikhail Lyubansky <lyubanskym at gmail.com>wrote:
>
> Dear Melodye,
>>
>> I am both sad and angry at the comments you describe and regret that you
>> elicited that kind of response.  I've never listened to this particular
>> show, but anyone who has followed the national discourse around race is all
>> too familiar with the "othering" and "condescension" that you describe.  It
>> is clear to those of us with some consciousness about the many structural
>> and interpersonal ways that nonwhites have historically been and continue to
>> be marginalized that white conservatives just don't "get it".  And indeed
>> they don't.
>>
>> But I'd like to suggest that many self-identified liberals and
>> progressives don't "get" white conservatives either.  There's a tendency on
>> the part of progressives to assume an attitude of moral superiority when
>> talking to or about white conservatives, as well as to assume that their
>> intentions/goals are to, if not explicitly oppress, at the very least to
>> maintain the system of oppression that currently exists.  No doubt this is
>> sometimes the case.  But the problem with stereotypes is not that they are
>> not true, but that they are incomplete.  There are many white conservatives
>> that can and do support the equity and justice goals that progressives tend
>> to rally around.  The difference is not over the goals or outcomes but the
>> strategies that are supposed to produce those outcomes.
>>
>> My point is, if we are to move toward the kind of community we want -- a
>> community characterized by racial equity and solidarity -- then we have to
>> also be willing to listen and understand the "other" in the ways that they
>> want to be understood.  As strange as it might seem, I think we have to find
>> ways to ally with the oppressive segments of our community so that we can
>> begin to understand each other's needs and come to the realization that they
>> are not in opposition with each other.
>>
>> I am not advocating for compromise -- of any sort.  I am not advocating
>> for patience.  This is urgent. There is no time for patience. And the needs
>> are too important to compromise.  I'm just suggesting that demonizing the
>> other side is not likely to get what we want.
>>
>> This HuffPo writer has some additional thoughts on this that I think are
>> worth considering:
>> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nancy-wadsworth/down-with-demonology-the_b_318660.html
>>
>> The writer above is a white woman...and I am (if you don't already know) a
>> white man.  As such, I recognize that we speak from a privileged position.
>> But our positions (as white progressives whose writing focuses on racial
>> issues), also give us a perspective that may have some value.  I offer it
>> here in that spirit and look forward to hearing how it is perceived.
>>
>> Mikhail
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 10:41 AM, Melodye Rosales <
>> melodye at nitrogendesign.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Amazing---if anyone caught Penny For Your Thoughts today---all the
>>> callers for the last week have spoken as if they know what happened and how
>>> bad the kids are because they lack parenting---some spoke of the black
>>> community as a whole in that regard. But when I call in today and said that,
>>> "... I find it interesting that when Black Folk speak of injustice we are
>>> said to be using the race card, but when the callers on your (Turpins) show
>>> criticize our community with misnomers and lack of information, they are
>>> justified----I think that the community needs Diversity Training."
>>>
>>> The guy who followed called me "Arrogant".  For those of us (most on this
>>> list) who understand what that word means when referring to a Black person,
>>> coming from a Conservative White person, it is coded language that needs no
>>> Decoder.  Turpin (who seems frustrated I have called daily to correct the
>>> mis-statements that he allows to fester) made sure when the caller didn't
>>> catch my name, to let him know---more over, let his audience know that I am
>>> someone to watch.
>>>
>>> My concern is that a large majority in the Conservative Community are
>>> purposely trying to allow mis-statements to take flight.  It is almost as if
>>> they want to sway those who may visit the matter with open eyes, to feel
>>> that if they align their concerns with ours, then they somehow aren't caring
>>> about the "Good White Community".  The tragedy is that while we are simply
>>> trying to push for open government and transparency, while trying to
>>> highlight a flawed local government and provide more equitable solutions to
>>> bring about a more balanced and inclusive community----these Conservatives
>>> are using their energies to push us back into the place they feel we
>>> belong------without a voice.  "After all", the Conservatives cry out, "why
>>> do them-folk need a voice?  We've always told them what to do, what not to
>>> do, where to go, when to come back and how to behave. 'Cause they know we
>>> ain't toleratin' no back talk, no complaints, no questions.  So ya see,
>>> that's why them-folk don't need no voice. It's them Arrogant Ns who are
>>> causing the trouble. They be confusing them-folk.  They be tellin' them-folk
>>> they done always had a voice and they just gotta begin using it. Yep, it's
>>> them Arrogant Ns who are gonna get them-folk in trouble, not us."
>>>
>>> What a sad 1950s moment this community is experiencing...
>>>
>>> -M
>>
>>
>
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