[Discuss] [Peace-discuss] Police policy on lethal force

[John W.]

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Melodye Rosales <melodye at nitrogendesign.com
> wrote:

Well I must agree that John's partner is indeed, a Beautiful (outside)
> (inside), extremely intelligent (with the appropriate letters behind her
> name to validate), dedicated to stomping out low-literacy in Chicago area
> Adults and works tirelessly to do so---and simply an all-around amazing
> woman whom I am proud to claim as part of our Black Culture.
>
> ...and John's points are well taken.  My father, a White-Jew, was disowned
> by his parents when he decided to roam within and fall in love with the
> Black community and those in it.  My cousins (my father's siblings children)
> share their sadness about our grandmother's attitude (our grandfather was
> less vocal).  They call her a racist. (of course she has long ago passed
> away, as has my father who was born in 1911).  And though my parents and
> grandparents came from a different time, those attitudes run rampant
> today----often hidden under the covers of "political correctness".


Not two days ago I had a rather rancorous exchange on Facebook with a White
man and a White woman who insisted that my unwillingness to be amused by
"politically incorrect" humor was intolerance on my part.  It started out as
a post about an "illegal alien" Halloween costume which was being taken off
the shelves at Target following protests by pro-immigration groups.  Even
after I told them about my own experiences - a White acquaintance who wore a
Ku Klux Klan costume to the annual Halloween party hosted by the Black Law
Students Association here at UIUC, and a bus trip Jan and I took in which a
big fat White guy was telling n*gger jokes a few seats behind us - it was
difficult for them to fathom that the purveyor of the racist "humor" was
more intolerant than I.  The average White person   JUST   DOESN'T   GET
IT .  They have absolutely no idea how deeply damaging - physicially,
psychologically, in every way - their seemingly innocuous behavior can be,
because they have no frame of reference for it.

Again, I don't have words strong enough to properly convey it.

John



> On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 3:19 PM, John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>

> Mikhail,
>>
>> I read your missive and Nancy Wadsworth's HuffPo article, and I don't know
>> how to process it.
>>
>> Back in the day, Malcolm X advised White people to go back into their own
>> communities and convince their White counterparts not to be racist.  I tried
>> it.  Never in life have I ever succeeded in disabusing a racist White person
>> of a single iota of his/her racism.  Racism is not logical; it's emotional,
>> deeply ingrained, and systemic.
>>
>> When I dared to fall in love with a Black woman back in 1987 - a lovely,
>> intelligent, educated, caring Black woman whom Melodye knows - my mother
>> promptly told me that she had no interest in even making her acquaintance.
>> For two years I tried in vain to convince my mother - a "Christian" woman
>> who had Black friends, supposedly, and taught Black students who adored her
>> - that her racial bias was irrational and counterproductive.  She invoked
>> the Bible, she invoked her reputation in the community, she invoked
>> everything she could think of to dissuade me.  When she began to threaten me
>> with disinheritance if I persisted in my "folly", I marched out of her house
>> and out of her life.  She lived for 20 more years, never relinquishing her
>> choice of a dead ideology over the love of her only living child.  And yes,
>> she did disinherit me.
>>
>> Having lived through that experience, I can say with certainty that racism
>> is one of the most evil, virulent, pernicious, toxic poisons known to man.
>> It has very real consequences in the real world.  And ultimately, people
>> CHOOSE it.  I simply can't excuse it.  I'm happy to engage in dialogue with
>> anyone, but I've never seen an instance where a racist White person was made
>> less racist through anything that I said.
>>
>> Black people can have racial prejudices and stereotypes, too, of course.
>> But I've found that there are significant and profound differences.  First
>> of all, Black people have valid historical reasons for any racial prejudices
>> that they might harbor.  And second, I have found them to be open-minded
>> enough to give White people, who do NOT deserve it, the benefit of the
>> doubt.  If a White person proves that he or she can be trusted, Black people
>> will open their homes and hearts.  Not so with the White people I've known.
>>
>> Arrgh, words fail me.
>>
>> John Wason
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Mikhail Lyubansky <lyubanskym at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>> Dear Melodye,
>>>
>>> I am both sad and angry at the comments you describe and regret that you
>>> elicited that kind of response.  I've never listened to this particular
>>> show, but anyone who has followed the national discourse around race is all
>>> too familiar with the "othering" and "condescension" that you describe.  It
>>> is clear to those of us with some consciousness about the many structural
>>> and interpersonal ways that nonwhites have historically been and continue to
>>> be marginalized that white conservatives just don't "get it".  And indeed
>>> they don't.
>>>
>>> But I'd like to suggest that many self-identified liberals and
>>> progressives don't "get" white conservatives either.  There's a tendency on
>>> the part of progressives to assume an attitude of moral superiority when
>>> talking to or about white conservatives, as well as to assume that their
>>> intentions/goals are to, if not explicitly oppress, at the very least to
>>> maintain the system of oppression that currently exists.  No doubt this is
>>> sometimes the case.  But the problem with stereotypes is not that they are
>>> not true, but that they are incomplete.  There are many white conservatives
>>> that can and do support the equity and justice goals that progressives tend
>>> to rally around.  The difference is not over the goals or outcomes but the
>>> strategies that are supposed to produce those outcomes.
>>>
>>> My point is, if we are to move toward the kind of community we want -- a
>>> community characterized by racial equity and solidarity -- then we have to
>>> also be willing to listen and understand the "other" in the ways that they
>>> want to be understood.  As strange as it might seem, I think we have to find
>>> ways to ally with the oppressive segments of our community so that we can
>>> begin to understand each other's needs and come to the realization that they
>>> are not in opposition with each other.
>>>
>>> I am not advocating for compromise -- of any sort.  I am not advocating
>>> for patience.  This is urgent. There is no time for patience. And the needs
>>> are too important to compromise.  I'm just suggesting that demonizing the
>>> other side is not likely to get what we want.
>>>
>>> This HuffPo writer has some additional thoughts on this that I think are
>>> worth considering:
>>> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nancy-wadsworth/down-with-demonology-the_b_318660.html
>>>
>>> The writer above is a white woman...and I am (if you don't already know)
>>> a white man.  As such, I recognize that we speak from a privileged position.
>>> But our positions (as white progressives whose writing focuses on racial
>>> issues), also give us a perspective that may have some value.  I offer it
>>> here in that spirit and look forward to hearing how it is perceived.
>>>
>>> Mikhail
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 10:41 AM, Melodye Rosales <
>>> melodye at nitrogendesign.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Amazing---if anyone caught Penny For Your Thoughts today---all the
>>>> callers for the last week have spoken as if they know what happened and how
>>>> bad the kids are because they lack parenting---some spoke of the black
>>>> community as a whole in that regard. But when I call in today and said that,
>>>> "... I find it interesting that when Black Folk speak of injustice we are
>>>> said to be using the race card, but when the callers on your (Turpins) show
>>>> criticize our community with misnomers and lack of information, they are
>>>> justified----I think that the community needs Diversity Training."
>>>>
>>>> The guy who followed called me "Arrogant".  For those of us (most on
>>>> this list) who understand what that word means when referring to a Black
>>>> person, coming from a Conservative White person, it is coded language that
>>>> needs no Decoder.  Turpin (who seems frustrated I have called daily to
>>>> correct the mis-statements that he allows to fester) made sure when the
>>>> caller didn't catch my name, to let him know---more over, let his audience
>>>> know that I am someone to watch.
>>>>
>>>> My concern is that a large majority in the Conservative Community are
>>>> purposely trying to allow mis-statements to take flight.  It is almost as if
>>>> they want to sway those who may visit the matter with open eyes, to feel
>>>> that if they align their concerns with ours, then they somehow aren't caring
>>>> about the "Good White Community".  The tragedy is that while we are simply
>>>> trying to push for open government and transparency, while trying to
>>>> highlight a flawed local government and provide more equitable solutions to
>>>> bring about a more balanced and inclusive community----these Conservatives
>>>> are using their energies to push us back into the place they feel we
>>>> belong------without a voice.  "After all", the Conservatives cry out, "why
>>>> do them-folk need a voice?  We've always told them what to do, what not to
>>>> do, where to go, when to come back and how to behave. 'Cause they know we
>>>> ain't toleratin' no back talk, no complaints, no questions.  So ya see,
>>>> that's why them-folk don't need no voice. It's them Arrogant Ns who are
>>>> causing the trouble. They be confusing them-folk.  They be tellin' them-folk
>>>> they done always had a voice and they just gotta begin using it. Yep, it's
>>>> them Arrogant Ns who are gonna get them-folk in trouble, not us."
>>>>
>>>> What a sad 1950s moment this community is experiencing...
>>>>
>>>> -M
>>>
>>>
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