[Peace-discuss] Bacevich: Vietnam vs. Munich, and Creating an "Iraq/Afghanistan Syndrome"

Wed Aug 4 11:34:35 CDT 2010

I would go along with David's first two sentences. As to the third, yes, I think there was a strategic miscalculation [the two words should be linked] in the sense that Obama's ploys haven't turned out well (so far?) for him politically or for his and his accomplices' strategic/geopolitical aims. China, India, maybe even Russia, gain in the geopolitical competition. 

I don't know whether he is willing to sacrifice his political standing or strategy; I doubt it, but now he is between a rock and a hard place. His options look bleak. Pulling out would indicate the horrendous "waste" (to almost everyone who has not made a fast buck from it). Persisting will continue the bleeding. His gamble looks now like a miserable failure (to almost everyone, even to his liberal supporters). Sometimes people put themselves in bad situations in which there  are no decent solutions… 

--mkb

On Aug 4, 2010, at 10:42 AM, David Green wrote:

> Would you agree w/ Bacevich that Obama's decision was a political calculation that has led to a strategic miscalculation?
>  
> 
> Obama made a political calculation that in order to get elected, he would "oppose" the Iraq war and, in order to burnish his credentials with elites, support and expansion of the Afghan war. He kept the latter promise (unlike other less strategically important promises he did not keep) because of broader strategic interests in the region. It was not a "miscalculation." In order to support these long-term strategic interests, he is indeed willing to sacrifice his political strategy. And he likely will, both in November and as a one-termer. This is the price you must be willing to pay for what ultimately amounts to personal aggrandisement on the terms of those who run our country.
> 
>  
> DG
> 
> 
> 
> From: Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
> To: Brussel Morton K. <mkbrussel at comcast.net>; David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
> Cc: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
> Sent: Wed, August 4, 2010 9:54:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Bacevich: Vietnam vs. Munich, and Creating an "Iraq/Afghanistan Syndrome"
> 
> Would you agree w/ Bacevich that Obama's decision was a political calculation that has led to a strategic miscalculation? Bacevich's main point is that military solutions should be off the table because (laying aside moral, etc considerations) wars are no longer winnable. (And it's also become a political miscalculation, of course.)
>  --Jenifer
> 
> --- On Tue, 8/3/10, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> From: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Bacevich: Vietnam vs. Munich, and Creating an "Iraq/Afghanistan Syndrome"
> To: "Brussel Morton K." <mkbrussel at comcast.net>
> Cc: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
> Date: Tuesday, August 3, 2010, 9:36 PM
> 
> My central complaint about Bacevich's analysis is this:
>  
> "I can’t pretend to look into his (Obama's) heart and understand what factors caused him to make the decision he did. I suspect that a political calculation may have weighed more heavily than a strategic calculation or a moral calculation. And I find that deeply upsetting, because I, and I think many of us, felt that here, finally, was a public figure who—whose decisions would not be influenced primarily by political calculations."
>  
> I think Obama's was indeed a strategic calculation. Obama's political calculations have amounted to using and abusing his "base" while being willing to countenance political defeat at midterm and beyond. That should tell us something about antiwar strategic and political calculations, past and present.
> 
> 
> From: Brussel Morton K. <mkbrussel at comcast.net>
> To: Robert Naiman <naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>
> Cc: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>; Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
> Sent: Tue, August 3, 2010 9:21:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Bacevich: Vietnam vs. Munich, and Creating an "Iraq/Afghanistan Syndrome"
> 
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> 
> 
> On Aug 3, 2010, at 9:13 PM, Robert Naiman wrote:
> 
> > There are two separate issues here. One is Bacevich's particular take
> > on the causation story. This is something about which reasonable
> > people with essentially the same interests and values can, and often
> > do, vigorously disagree. For example, how much importance should one
> > attach to the Israel Lobby, the oil industry, the weapons
> > manufacturers, etc. in the Iraq war? As Chomsky pointed out, noting
> > the obvious, it's hard to pull apart the contributions of multiple
> > causes that are pointing in the same direction.
> > 
> > The other is the question of whether Bacevich is against the Empire.
> > That is beyond reasonable dispute. He is, resolutely.
> > 
> > On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Brussel Morton K. <MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to beMailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be mkbrussel at comcast.net> wrote:
> >> You are nitpicking.  Most of what Bacevich says is true  ["And the pressure
> >> comes from what President Eisenhower called the military-industrial complex,
> >>  The pressure comes from the national security apparatus."], but you don't
> >> like his word "norms" . You put the worst possible meaning on what he may
> >> mean by that term. The bottom line for me is that he does not agree with the
> >> American policies, wants to see them reversed, and, I would say, has come
> >> out strongly against American imperialism in general, economic and military.
> >> He's explicitly said so, and so written. He may still be a capitalist pig,
> >> but your arguments fail in the sense that he objects to the aspects of that
> >> capitalism that leads to imperialism, not recognizing, you think,  that that
> >> is impossible.  Finally, you condemn him because he does not come right out
> >> and say that Obama is part and parcel of the MI  (+ media and academic)
> >> complex.
> >> IMHO, your last paragraph below ["…are we interested in inventing fictional
> >> accounts that aggrandize the patriotic self-image of people like
> >> Bacevich?"] is absolute rubbish, and I'm almost embarrassed that see you
> >> stoop in that direction.  You invidiously presume to know Bacevich's mind
> >> and character.
> >> Again, what is most important for me at this time is to stop the killing,
> >> stop the occupations, stop the violation of human rights, … ; I'll stick up
> >> for those who manifestly work  and write for those ends, despite their other
> >> perceived defects, lack of understanding, or wanting to change other, or
> >> even associated, aspects of the "system".
> >> Your approach contributes to rendering progressive politics impotent . Its
> >> cock-sure stridency, and intolerance, alienates.
> >> --mkb
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On Aug 3, 2010, at 7:44 PM, David Green wrote:
> >> 
> >> Every or almost every aspect of Bacevich's analysis is wrong. Two examples
> >> from the interview on DN:
> >> 
> >> "We wish to dominate. We wish to ensure that norms that work to the
> >> advantage, or perceive to work to the advantage, of the United States
> >> prevail across the world. And we are, I think, uniquely, in this moment,
> >> determined to rely on military power to enforce those norms."
> >> 
> >> What norm is that? The norm that we control the world's resources? Does
> >> Bacevich define these "norms?"
> >> 
> >> "But you asked the question, where does the pressure come from? And the
> >> pressure comes from what President Eisenhower called the military-industrial
> >> complex. The pressure comes from the national security apparatus. There are
> >> people in institutions who are deeply invested in maintaining the status
> >> quo. There are budgets, there are prerogatives, there are ambitions, that
> >> ostensibly get satisfied by maintaining this drive for American globalism,
> >> again, backed by an emphasis on military power. So I don’t discount for a
> >> second that the President would have had to, you know, shove aside some
> >> fairly stubborn resistance to make that course change on Afghanistan, and he
> >> chose not to do it."
> >> 
> >> Yes, there is that, but in service of what or whom? It's the "industrial"
> >> aspect that's more important than the military as a fighting force. And it's
> >> economic interests that go beyond both to determine our elites' interest in
> >> controlling oil. The resistance that the President would have to "shove
> >> aside" (and won't, because he doesn't want to) is that of more than the M-I
> >> complex, and they also have to do with "credibility" in terms of our use of
> >> violence.
> >> 
> >> So are we interested in understanding why we're in Afghanistan and how to
> >> explain that to people, or are we interested in inventing fictional accounts
> >> that aggrandize the patriotic self-image of people like Bacevich? It's
> >> really just a pragmatic argument. Bob's suggestion won't work, it just won't
> >> work, can't work. Ever.
> >> 
> >> DG
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Brussel Morton K. <MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be mkbrussel at comcast.net>
> >> To: MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be naiman.uiuc at gmail.com
> >> Cc: Peace-discuss List <MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
> >> Sent: Tue, August 3, 2010 6:46:30 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Bacevich: Vietnam vs. Munich, and Creating an
> >> "Iraq/Afghanistan Syndrome"
> >> 
> >> Thanks for sending this on, Bob. Some on this list think Bacevich is a
> >> stooge, a closet imperialist. Quoting:
> >> Bacevich is an imperialist goof.
> >> 
> >> For his generally benighted view, see his book "American Empire" (2002),
> >> where he wrote about "the imperative of America's mission as the vanguard of
> >> history, transforming the global order and, in doing so, perpetuating its
> >> own dominance [guided by] the imperative of military supremacy, maintained
> >> in perpetuity and projected globally" (p.215ff.)
> >> 
> >> This is the sort of person who ends up as professor of "international
> >> relations" at Boston University (where Howard Zinn was hounded out).
> >> 
> >> His objection to American policy in the Mideast on Democracy Now! today is
> >> that it isn't working. We're not killing enough Asians to make our writ run,
> >> and it's too expensive.
> >> 
> >> … [ironic praise for something the author agrees with here.] Continuing:
> >> 
> >> The totality of the interview is the sort of objection that Nazi generals
> >> might have made of the Russian campaign.
> >> 
> >> The antiwar movement continues to be in serious trouble when people who
> >> purport to be against the war praise Bacevich.  --CGE
> >> Quite remakable.
> >> What is to be emphasized here are the virulent attacks on those who do not
> >> precisely say what these guys want them to say (or admit), even when they
> >> are saying things that would get the U.S. government to change its
> >> behavior. It is all devious, they say.  It appears as a kind of absolutely
> >> rigid ideological response not so different from when the Communist party
> >> line eminating from Lenin and Stalin condemned those like Rosa Luxemberg,
> >> Mensheviks, Trotskyities, socialists of various stripes, etc. in the early
> >> part of the 20th century. They would have been happy to see these deviants
> >> burned at the stake. (Trotsky indeed was assasinated, and others also fell.)
> >> --mkb
> >> On Aug 3, 2010, at 5:16 PM, Robert Naiman wrote:
> >> 
> >> Campaigning for President, Senator Obama said: "I don't want to just
> >> end the war, but I want to end the mindset that got us into war in the
> >> first place." But as Andrew Bacevich notes in his new book,
> >> "Washington Rules: America's Path to Permanent War," as President,
> >> Obama has done the opposite: he has promoted and acted on behalf of
> >> the mindset that leads to war. Bacevich's book is a call for Americans
> >> to reject the Washington consensus for permanent war, global
> >> counterinsurgency and global military power projection, and to demand
> >> instead that America "come home," as Martin Luther King called for in
> >> 1967, and focus on resolving its own domestic problems rather than act
> >> as a self-appointed global police and occupation force. Because of his
> >> personal background and establishment credentials, Bacevich may be
> >> able to move Americans currently beyond the reach of the peace
> >> movement. This is important, because a key task for ending our current
> >> wars and preventing future ones is to break the current
> >> near-monolithic support for permanent war among the dominant
> >> institutions of the Republican Party - a stance that effectively
> >> disenfranchises the substantial minority of Republican voters who
> >> oppose the permanent war.
> >> 
> >> This is why Bacevich's new book is potentially important for the U.S.
> >> peace movement. Get the book, read it, give it to a Republican friend,
> >> and talk to them about it. Join Just Foreign Policy on September 24th
> >> for a "Virtual Brown Bag" with Andrew Bacevich, and try to virtually
> >> bring your Republican friend.
> >> 
> >> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-naiman/bacevich-vietnam-vs-munic_b_669502.html
> >> 
> >> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/8/3/17494/90841
> >> 
> >> http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/node/662
> >> --
> >> Robert Naiman
> >> Policy Director
> >> Just Foreign Policy
> >> www.justforeignpolicy.org
> >> MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
> >> 
> >> Urge Congress to Support a Timetable for Military Withdrawal from
> >> Afghanistan
> >> http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/act/feingold-mcgovern
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Peace-discuss mailing list
> >> MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> >> http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Peace-discuss mailing list
> >> MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> >> http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
> >> 
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Robert Naiman
> > Policy Director
> > Just Foreign Policy
> > www.justforeignpolicy.org
> > MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
> > 
> > Urge Congress to Support a Timetable for Military Withdrawal from Afghanistan
> > http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/act/feingold-mcgovern
> 
> 
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