[Peace-discuss] Bacevich: Vietnam vs. Munich, and Creating an "Iraq/Afghanistan Syndrome"
David Green
davegreen84 at yahoo.com
Wed Aug 4 12:15:16 CDT 2010
"Obama's ploys haven't turned out well (so far?) for him politically or for his
and his accomplices' strategic/geopolitical aims."
Regarding the latter, I'm not so sure. We have to remember that his accomplices
are concerned about broader aspects of strategic planning for control of
resources, not short-term issues like casualties, leaks, etc. If that turns out
to be bad politically for the employee in the White House, too bad for him (or
maybe some day her).
________________________________
From: Morton K. Brussel <brussel at illinois.edu>
To: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
Cc: Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>; Peace Discuss
<peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Sent: Wed, August 4, 2010 11:34:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Bacevich: Vietnam vs. Munich, and Creating an
"Iraq/Afghanistan Syndrome"
I would go along with David's first two sentences. As to the third, yes, I think
there was a strategic miscalculation [the two words should be linked] in the
sense that Obama's ploys haven't turned out well (so far?) for him politically
or for his and his accomplices' strategic/geopolitical aims. China, India, maybe
even Russia, gain in the geopolitical competition.
I don't know whether he is willing to sacrifice his political standing or
strategy; I doubt it, but now he is between a rock and a hard place. His options
look bleak. Pulling out would indicate the horrendous "waste" (to almost
everyone who has not made a fast buck from it). Persisting will continue the
bleeding. His gamble looks now like a miserable failure (to almost everyone,
even to his liberal supporters). Sometimes people put themselves in bad
situations in which there are no decent solutions…
--mkb
On Aug 4, 2010, at 10:42 AM, David Green wrote:
Would you agree w/ Bacevich that Obama's decision was a political calculation
that has led to a strategic miscalculation?
>
>Obama made a political calculation that in order to get elected, he would
>"oppose" the Iraq war and, in order to burnish his credentials with elites,
>support and expansion of the Afghan war. He kept the latter promise (unlike
>other less strategically important promises he did not keep) because of broader
>strategic interests in the region. It was not a "miscalculation." In order to
>support these long-term strategic interests, he is indeed willing to sacrifice
>his political strategy. And he likely will, both in November and as a
>one-termer. This is the price you must be willing to pay for what ultimately
>amounts to personal aggrandisement on the terms of those who run our country.
>
>
>DG
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
>To: Brussel Morton K. <mkbrussel at comcast.net>; David Green
><davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
>Cc: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>Sent: Wed, August 4, 2010 9:54:04 AM
>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Bacevich: Vietnam vs. Munich, and Creating an
>"Iraq/Afghanistan Syndrome"
>
>
>Would you agree w/ Bacevich that Obama's decision was a political calculation
>that has led to a strategic miscalculation? Bacevich's main point is that
>military solutions should be off the table because (laying aside moral, etc
>considerations) wars are no longer winnable. (And it's also become a political
>miscalculation, of course.)
>
> --Jenifer
>
>--- On Tue, 8/3/10, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>From: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
>>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Bacevich: Vietnam vs. Munich, and Creating an
>>"Iraq/Afghanistan Syndrome"
>>To: "Brussel Morton K." <mkbrussel at comcast.net>
>>Cc: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>Date: Tuesday, August 3, 2010, 9:36 PM
>>
>>
>>My central complaint about Bacevich's analysis is this:
>>
>>"I can’t pretend to look into his (Obama's) heart and understand what factors
>>caused him to make the decision he did. I suspect that a political calculation
>>may have weighed more heavily than a strategic calculation or a moral
>>calculation. And I find that deeply upsetting, because I, and I think many of
>>us, felt that here, finally, was a public figure who—whose decisions would not
>>be influenced primarily by political calculations."
>>
>>I think Obama's was indeed a strategic calculation. Obama's political
>>calculations have amounted to using and abusing his "base" while being willing
>>to countenance political defeat at midterm and beyond. That should tell us
>>something about antiwar strategic and political calculations, past and present.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
________________________________
From: Brussel Morton K. <mkbrussel at comcast.net>
>>To: Robert Naiman <naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>
>>Cc: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>; Peace Discuss
>><peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>Sent: Tue, August 3, 2010 9:21:09 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Bacevich: Vietnam vs. Munich, and Creating an
>>"Iraq/Afghanistan Syndrome"
>>
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>>friendhttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-naiman/bacevich-vietnam-vs-munic_b_669502.html http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/8/3/17494/90841",
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>> Naiman Policy Director Just Foreign
>>Policywww.justforeignpolicy.org naiman at justforeignpolicy.org Urge", "metaData":
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>>Policy www.justforeignpolicy.org naiman at justforeignpolicy.org Urge Congress to
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>>Withdrawal from
>>Afghanistan http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/act/feingold-mcgovern Peace-discuss
>>mailing
>>list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss Peace-discuss
>> mailing
>>list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.nethttp://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss",
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>>"showOnClick": [], "context": "for Military Withdrawal from
>>Afghanistan http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/act/feingold-mcgovern Peace-discuss
>>mailing
>>list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss Peace-discuss
>> mailing
>>list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.nethttp://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss Robert
>> Naiman Policy Director Just", "metaData": { "linkHref":
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>>YAHOO.Shortcuts.annotationSetID = "fde9f12086aa47588d54e920e5f35659"; Yes.
>>
>>
>>On Aug 3, 2010, at 9:13 PM, Robert Naiman wrote:
>>
>>> There are two separate issues here. One is Bacevich's particular take
>>> on the causation story. This is something about which reasonable
>>> people with essentially the same interests and values can, and often
>>> do, vigorously disagree. For example, how much importance should one
>>> attach to the Israel Lobby, the oil industry, the weapons
>>> manufacturers, etc. in the Iraq war? As Chomsky pointed out, noting
>>> the obvious, it's hard to pull apart the contributions of multiple
>>> causes that are pointing in the same direction.
>>>
>>> The other is the question of whether Bacevich is against the Empire.
>>> That is beyond reasonable dispute. He is, resolutely.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Brussel Morton K. <MailScanner has detected a
>>>possible fraud attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to beMailScanner
>>>has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to
>>>be mkbrussel at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> You are nitpicking. Most of what Bacevich says is true ["And the pressure
>>>> comes from what President Eisenhower called the military-industrial
complex,
>>>> The pressure comes from the national security apparatus."], but you don't
>>>> like his word "norms" . You put the worst possible meaning on what he may
>>>> mean by that term. The bottom line for me is that he does not agree with
the
>>>> American policies, wants to see them reversed, and, I would say, has come
>>>> out strongly against American imperialism in general, economic and
military.
>>>> He's explicitly said so, and so written. He may still be a capitalist pig,
>>>> but your arguments fail in the sense that he objects to the aspects of that
>>>> capitalism that leads to imperialism, not recognizing, you think, that
that
>>>> is impossible. Finally, you condemn him because he does not come right out
>>>> and say that Obama is part and parcel of the MI (+ media and academic)
>>>> complex.
>>>> IMHO, your last paragraph below ["…are we interested in inventing fictional
>>>> accounts that aggrandize the patriotic self-image of people like
>>>> Bacevich?"] is absolute rubbish, and I'm almost embarrassed that see you
>>>> stoop in that direction. You invidiously presume to know Bacevich's mind
>>>> and character.
>>>> Again, what is most important for me at this time is to stop the killing,
>>>> stop the occupations, stop the violation of human rights, … ; I'll stick up
>>>> for those who manifestly work and write for those ends, despite their
other
>>>> perceived defects, lack of understanding, or wanting to change other, or
>>>> even associated, aspects of the "system".
>>>> Your approach contributes to rendering progressive politics impotent . Its
>>>> cock-sure stridency, and intolerance, alienates.
>>>> --mkb
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 3, 2010, at 7:44 PM, David Green wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Every or almost every aspect of Bacevich's analysis is wrong. Two examples
>>>> from the interview on DN:
>>>>
>>>> "We wish to dominate. We wish to ensure that norms that work to the
>>>> advantage, or perceive to work to the advantage, of the United States
>>>> prevail across the world. And we are, I think, uniquely, in this moment,
>>>> determined to rely on military power to enforce those norms."
>>>>
>>>> What norm is that? The norm that we control the world's resources? Does
>>>> Bacevich define these "norms?"
>>>>
>>>> "But you asked the question, where does the pressure come from? And the
>>>> pressure comes from what President Eisenhower called the
military-industrial
>>>> complex. The pressure comes from the national security apparatus. There are
>>>> people in institutions who are deeply invested in maintaining the status
>>>> quo. There are budgets, there are prerogatives, there are ambitions, that
>>>> ostensibly get satisfied by maintaining this drive for American globalism,
>>>> again, backed by an emphasis on military power. So I don’t discount for a
>>>> second that the President would have had to, you know, shove aside some
>>>> fairly stubborn resistance to make that course change on Afghanistan, and
he
>>>> chose not to do it."
>>>>
>>>> Yes, there is that, but in service of what or whom? It's the "industrial"
>>>> aspect that's more important than the military as a fighting force. And
it's
>>>> economic interests that go beyond both to determine our elites' interest in
>>>> controlling oil. The resistance that the President would have to "shove
>>>> aside" (and won't, because he doesn't want to) is that of more than the M-I
>>>> complex, and they also have to do with "credibility" in terms of our use of
>>>> violence.
>>>>
>>>> So are we interested in understanding why we're in Afghanistan and how to
>>>> explain that to people, or are we interested in inventing fictional
accounts
>>>> that aggrandize the patriotic self-image of people like Bacevich? It's
>>>> really just a pragmatic argument. Bob's suggestion won't work, it just
won't
>>>> work, can't work. Ever.
>>>>
>>>> DG
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Brussel Morton K. <MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from
>>>>"us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be MailScanner has detected a possible fraud
>>>>attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be mkbrussel at comcast.net>
>>>> To: MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from
>>>>"us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be MailScanner has detected a possible fraud
>>>>attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be naiman.uiuc at gmail.com
>>>> Cc: Peace-discuss List <MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from
>>>>"us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be MailScanner has detected a possible fraud
>>>>attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to
>>>>be peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>>> Sent: Tue, August 3, 2010 6:46:30 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Bacevich: Vietnam vs. Munich, and Creating an
>>>> "Iraq/Afghanistan Syndrome"
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for sending this on, Bob. Some on this list think Bacevich is a
>>>> stooge, a closet imperialist. Quoting:
>>>> Bacevich is an imperialist goof.
>>>>
>>>> For his generally benighted view, see his book "American Empire" (2002),
>>>> where he wrote about "the imperative of America's mission as the vanguard
of
>>>> history, transforming the global order and, in doing so, perpetuating its
>>>> own dominance [guided by] the imperative of military supremacy, maintained
>>>> in perpetuity and projected globally" (p.215ff.)
>>>>
>>>> This is the sort of person who ends up as professor of "international
>>>> relations" at Boston University (where Howard Zinn was hounded out).
>>>>
>>>> His objection to American policy in the Mideast on Democracy Now! today is
>>>> that it isn't working. We're not killing enough Asians to make our writ
run,
>>>> and it's too expensive.
>>>>
>>>> … [ironic praise for something the author agrees with here.] Continuing:
>>>>
>>>> The totality of the interview is the sort of objection that Nazi generals
>>>> might have made of the Russian campaign.
>>>>
>>>> The antiwar movement continues to be in serious trouble when people who
>>>> purport to be against the war praise Bacevich. --CGE
>>>> Quite remakable.
>>>> What is to be emphasized here are the virulent attacks on those who do not
>>>> precisely say what these guys want them to say (or admit), even when they
>>>> are saying things that would get the U.S. government to change its
>>>> behavior. It is all devious, they say. It appears as a kind of absolutely
>>>> rigid ideological response not so different from when the Communist party
>>>> line eminating from Lenin and Stalin condemned those like Rosa Luxemberg,
>>>> Mensheviks, Trotskyities, socialists of various stripes, etc. in the early
>>>> part of the 20th century. They would have been happy to see these deviants
>>>> burned at the stake. (Trotsky indeed was assasinated, and others also
fell.)
>>>> --mkb
>>>> On Aug 3, 2010, at 5:16 PM, Robert Naiman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Campaigning for President, Senator Obama said: "I don't want to just
>>>> end the war, but I want to end the mindset that got us into war in the
>>>> first place." But as Andrew Bacevich notes in his new book,
>>>> "Washington Rules: America's Path to Permanent War," as President,
>>>> Obama has done the opposite: he has promoted and acted on behalf of
>>>> the mindset that leads to war. Bacevich's book is a call for Americans
>>>> to reject the Washington consensus for permanent war, global
>>>> counterinsurgency and global military power projection, and to demand
>>>> instead that America "come home," as Martin Luther King called for in
>>>> 1967, and focus on resolving its own domestic problems rather than act
>>>> as a self-appointed global police and occupation force. Because of his
>>>> personal background and establishment credentials, Bacevich may be
>>>> able to move Americans currently beyond the reach of the peace
>>>> movement. This is important, because a key task for ending our current
>>>> wars and preventing future ones is to break the current
>>>> near-monolithic support for permanent war among the dominant
>>>> institutions of the Republican Party - a stance that effectively
>>>> disenfranchises the substantial minority of Republican voters who
>>>> oppose the permanent war.
>>>>
>>>> This is why Bacevich's new book is potentially important for the U.S.
>>>> peace movement. Get the book, read it, give it to a Republican friend,
>>>> and talk to them about it. Join Just Foreign Policy on September 24th
>>>> for a "Virtual Brown Bag" with Andrew Bacevich, and try to virtually
>>>> bring your Republican friend.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-naiman/bacevich-vietnam-vs-munic_b_669502.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/8/3/17494/90841
>>>>
>>>> http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/node/662
>>>> --
>>>> Robert Naiman
>>>> Policy Director
>>>> Just Foreign Policy
>>>> www.justforeignpolicy.org
>>>> MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com"
>>>>claiming to be MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from
>>>>"us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>>>>
>>>> Urge Congress to Support a Timetable for Military Withdrawal from
>>>> Afghanistan
>>>> http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/act/feingold-mcgovern
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>> MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com"
>>>>claiming to be MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from
>>>>"us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>> http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>> MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com"
>>>>claiming to be MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from
>>>>"us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>> http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Robert Naiman
>>> Policy Director
>>> Just Foreign Policy
>>> www.justforeignpolicy.org
>>> MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com"
>>>claiming to be MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from
>>>"us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>>>
>>> Urge Congress to Support a Timetable for Military Withdrawal from
Afghanistan
>>> http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/act/feingold-mcgovern
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>
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