[Peace-discuss] Shlomo Sand: The Invention of the Jewish People

[E. Wayne Johnson]

The descendants of Abraham were to be as the "Sand".  Maybe the long 
time it takes to count them is because we are in Shlo-mo?"

On 8/10/2010 4:05 AM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
> You've established your Higher Seriousness with your reference to  how 
> "historians Urred from the start".  But I think Ur being Chaldeeish...
>
>
> On 8/9/10 2:53 PM, David Green wrote:
>> The gist of the matter, according to Sand, seems to be this: the Jews 
>> were not expelled from Judea by the Romans after the fall of the 2nd 
>> Temple (70 A.D.); but they did continue to expand their numbers by 
>> proselytizing and conversion around the Greek world (in spite of its 
>> painfulness for men); but Christians turned out to be better at both 
>> P & C (perhaps abetted by being able to C without being C'd; but 
>> there's no evidence offered for that); and that Judaism subsequently 
>> becoming non-proselytizing and relatively exclusionary was in effect 
>> the result of its losing out to the Jesus-freaks in the area of 
>> salesmanship (which again challenges an established Jewish 
>> stereotype). But again, as Sutcliffe stresses, the historical 
>> speculation, although well-founded and well-explained in the book, is 
>> less important than the manner in which the history of Judaism was 
>> "invented" in the 19th century by Reform German Jews--including all 
>> the way back to Abraham--historians Urred from the start in order to 
>> construct a nationalist narrative.
>> DG
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* C. G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu>
>> *To:* David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
>> *Cc:* Morton K. Brussel <brussel at illinois.edu>; Peace Discuss 
>> <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>> *Sent:* Mon, August 9, 2010 2:18:55 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Shlomo Sand: The Invention of the 
>> Jewish People
>>
>> OK, I'm going to have to read it.  I'm teaching a History of 
>> Christianity course in the Religious Studies Department this fall, 
>> and in fact there's been some interesting academic work in the last 
>> decade on the inter-mixture of Judaism and Christianity ca. 
>> 200-500CE.  I hope I have students au courant enough to ask about 
>> Sand & the the early relationship between Judaism and Christianity. --CGE
>>
>> On 8/9/10 1:00 PM, David Green wrote:
>>> Hi Mort,
>>> I'm more than half-way through it, and it's fascinating, although 
>>> often tough going. It's also very well-written, well-translated, or 
>>> both. I think it gets at historical truths, but more interestingly 
>>> (as Adam points out) at historiographical truths from 19th century 
>>> Germany, through the origins of Zionism, to the present. What's done 
>>> is done, and Israel "exists." But it wouldn't hurt if people 
>>> understood the implications of the likelihood that the Palestinians 
>>> are descendants of the Judaeans of antiquity, and that Jews like you 
>>> and me are almost certainly not. It also says a lot about the early 
>>> relationship between Judaism and Christianity that is not well known.
>>> DG
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* Morton K. Brussel <brussel at illinois.edu>
>>> *To:* David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
>>> *Sent:* Mon, August 9, 2010 12:30:47 PM
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Shlomo Sand: The Invention of the 
>>> Jewish People
>>>
>>> David,
>>>
>>> Thanks for sending this along. Have you read Sand's book? Opinions? 
>>>  There are many on the Amazon web site for this book. Of course, how 
>>> to distinguish the politics from the "truth" is a problem seen there.
>>>
>>> Mort
>>>
>>> On Aug 9, 2010, at 8:37 AM, David Green wrote:
>>>
>>>> A brief review of this book by Adam Sutcliffe, formerly on the 
>>>> faculty here:
>>>> http://www.palestine-studies.org/journals.aspx?id=10668&jid=1&href=fulltext 
>>>> <http://www.palestine-studies.org/journals.aspx?id=10668&jid=1&href=fulltext>
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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