[Peace-discuss] Rachel Corrie Continues Towards Gaza: WillObamaLet Israel Attack?

Tue Jun 1 20:19:25 CDT 2010

Actually, you are confusing "actualities" and "should be."  What I have said is that in actuality (independent of what should be) nothing is really going to happen of any real significance given the political realities of this world. Israel knew and knows this and is counting on it.  Thus, it does not give a damn about what anyone is saying or any declarations that anyone is passing since - as even children know - "sticks and stones will break your bones, but names will never really hurt you."   What I suggested should be done (the activism I am suggesting) is for the member nations in the international community to stop acting rationally when dealing with Israel and got to war with them, telling the US that if they oppose such actions they will also be considered an enemy of humanity and the civilized world.  You and many others are like the members of the international community only thinking within the box of civil, rational, responsible, and polite responses which only will prove to be ineffective when dealing with those who refuse to play that game according to the formal established rules but insist on using the rules of the game to justify violating them and playing the players.  However, if one stops responding in accordance with the rules of the game so as to make the game unpredictable and unsafe wars of all against all then Israel will stop and take notice because their environment has become unpredictable and unknowable and they cannot count on anything. Thus, I an suggesting that one start thinking out of the box by taking the offensive and putting Israel on the defensive.  Let Israel and the US call the rest of the world crazy, irrational, irresponsible, immoral, etc. rather than allowing them to stick their noses up at the rest of the world by taking actions that the rest of the world condemns as being irrational, inhumane, crazy, irresponsible, immoral, etc.

From: Robert Naiman 
Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 5:37 PM
To: Laurie Solomon 
Cc: Peace-discuss List 
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Rachel Corrie Continues Towards Gaza: WillObamaLet Israel Attack?

You make my point more effectively than I did. According to your claims, only actions that will obviously not happen will make any difference. The logical conclusion of your argument is that it's useless to try to do anything. Therefore, your argument is an argument on behalf of inactivism. I rest my case. 

On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Laurie Solomon <ls1000 at live.com> wrote:

  Well Bob,  I personally just do not think that Israel really gives a damn what the international community says or passes unless it is backed up with significant actions and has the support of the US.  If UN could and would place a quarantine on Israel and establish a blockade of its air service and ports, that might have some effect on Israeli actions; but the Us would not let such UN action happen. If the nations in the international community would break their diplomatic relations with Israel, that might get their ear; but we know that none of them have the balls to do that since it would alienate the US.

  Israel released the detainees for a number of reasons; but I doubt that international pressure and condemnation are among the reasons.  Bad press - except possibly in the US - has never really influenced Israel.  We can cite all kinds of instances where the international community and world press have criticized and condemned Israel for its actions and policies to no avail.  The siege of Gaza as well as the invasion is but one example; the continued development of settlements on Arab land and the eviction of Arabs from their houses so that Jewish Israelis can  have and use those properties is another.  Israel took the detainees because they knew they could and would not suffer any retaliation from other countries - except the hurling of words and declarations; they released them because they had proven their point that they could detain them without any punitive response by the outside world and they were no longer needed as hostages against any possible retaliation for the actions that Israel had taken in international waters by other countries.  Their detention was a symbolic act at best and not one that was intended to implement any national security measures or anti-terrorism investigations.

  From: Robert Naiman 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 3:45 PM
  To: Jenifer Cartwright 
  Cc: Peace-discuss List 
  Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Rachel Corrie Continues Towards Gaza: WillObama Let Israel Attack?

  I empathize with your frustration, Jenifer, but it just isn't so, and from an activist point of view, it's important for people to understand that it isn't so. 

  Actions of the Israeli government are not impervious to external criticism.

  Exercise: compare UN Security Council resolutions supported by the United States which are critical of Israeli government actions and subsequent actions by the Israeli government. 

  Example: This morning, the UN Security Council passed a resolution which, among other things, called on Israel to release the detainees.

  Now - later the same day - it is being reported that the Israeli government has decided to release the prisoners. 

  Is that significant? Well, first of all, of course, the prisoners have the right to go free. But secondly, the moment they are free they get to tell their story - surely a motivation for their previous continued detention. Already, lots of stories are coming out with headlines saying, "released activists dispute Israeli government account," etc. 

  On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 4:09 PM, Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com> wrote:

          I'd like to think the US has that kind of power over Israel, and that Obama would turn this around if he could.  I once believed it did (or must have had, considering the amt of US $upport), but I'm beginning to think that Israel, under Netanyahu most especially, is marching unstoppably to its own mad drummer, willfully oblivious to anything or anyone... as crazy and as hell-bent on its agenda as decades ago Germany, current N Korea, and (it could be argued in some instances) the US since its inception...   
           --Jenifer   

          --- On Tue, 6/1/10, Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com> wrote:

            From: Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com>
            Subject: [Peace-discuss] Rachel Corrie Continues Towards Gaza: Will Obama Let Israel Attack?
            To: "Peace-discuss List" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
            Date: Tuesday, June 1, 2010, 12:04 PM

            The Irish Times reports that the Rachel Corrie is "ploughing ahead
            with its attempt to deliver aid to Gaza despite yesterday's attack by
            the Israeli navy on Gaza-bound ship the Mavi Marmara." Would the Obama
            Administration permit an Israeli attack on the Rachel Corrie, as the
            Obama Administration permitted the Israeli attack on the Mavi Marmara?

            Rachel Corrie Continues Towards Gaza: Will Obama Let Israel Attack?
            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-naiman/rachel-corrie-continues-t_b_596014.html
            http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/6/1/111035/2833
            http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/node/596

            --
            Robert Naiman
            Policy Director
            Just Foreign Policy
            www.justforeignpolicy.org
            naiman at justforeignpolicy.org

            Urge Congress to Support a Timetable for Military Withdrawal from Afghanistan
            http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/act/feingold-mcgovern

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  Robert Naiman
  Policy Director
  Just Foreign Policy
  www.justforeignpolicy.org
  naiman at justforeignpolicy.org

  Urge Congress to Support a Timetable for Military Withdrawal from Afghanistan
  http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/act/feingold-mcgovern

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naiman at justforeignpolicy.org

Urge Congress to Support a Timetable for Military Withdrawal from Afghanistan
http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/act/feingold-mcgovern

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